Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a dhéanamh leis an Aire Stáit, an Teachta Kehoe, agus leis an Aire Cosanta, an Teachta Shatter, as ucht na hoibre atá déanta acu ar an mBille tábhachtach seo. Gabhaim buíochas freisin leis na státseirbhísigh sa Roinn Cosanta a bhfuil go leor oibre déanta acu ar an ábhar céanna. Tá an Bille dréachtaithe go han-mhaith. Tá cothromaíocht agus an spiorad ceart léirithe sa reachtaíocht. Nuair a ardaíodh an cheist seo sa Seanad cúpla seachtain ó shin, dhearbhaigh an Seanadóir Mooney go raibh Fianna Fáil chun tacaíocht a thabhairt dó. Tá mé sásta a rá nach bhfuil aon fhadhb agam leis an mBille. Beidh Fianna Fáil ag tacú leis sa Teach seo freisin. Is dócha go bhfáiltím go speisialta roimh an bealach ina bhfuil sé á láimhseáil. Is rud an-dáiríre é do shaighdiúir ar bith arm a thréigeadh. Is é sin ata i gceist againn anseo. Sna blianta atá imithe ón Dara Cogadh Domhanda, táimid tar éis éirí níos aibí. Is dócha go bhfuilimid fásta suas mar Stát. Is féidir linn féachaint siar le meon difriúil ar na heachtraí uafásacha a tharla san aois seo caite. Tá mé sásta gur maithiúnas, in ionad pardún ginearálta mar atá leagtha síos sa Bhunreacht, atá i gceist sa Bhille seo.

It is good to have an opportunity to address an issue of this importance in the House. In discussing the soldiers who deserted to support the Allied war effort, we should not lose sight of all the other Irishmen and women who left these shores at that time. It is estimated that approximately 60,000 did so from the Twenty-six Counties and upwards of another 60,000 from the Six Counties. They participated in the effort against what was a fundamentally evil regime. We all accept that those who participated in the battle against Hitler's monstrous regime were fighting in the interests of humanity.

As we meet to debate these matters, we remember in particular those who lost their lives. Like Deputy Clare Daly, I come from County Kildare and we have a particularly strong tradition of support and respect for the Defence Forces. It goes back beyond the foundation of the State because within our county many members of the British armed forces were based for many years. Therefore, our tradition and respect in Kildare is strong.

In examining this matter, I was interested in the writings of one of our well respected solicitors and historians in Kildare, Mr. Frank Taffe. He has researched the number of Kildare people whose family members who took part in the Second World War or who fought in it themselves. I will read into the record of the House an extract from one of Mr. Taffe's writings entitled "Eye on the Past". He is writing here about reading a book on the personnel who had deserted and who participated in the war effort. He states:

I went through the book at the time and extracted the names of 19 Athy men from the town and surrounding countryside who were included in what was sometimes referred to as the "Irish list of shame". For my part, I never regarded the book in that light and especially so after I had the privilege of interviewing one of the men who was so listed. His story was a simple one. Without work and with no prospect of getting work, he enlisted in the Irish Army only to find conditions and food so bad as to be intolerable. He, in company with so many of his army colleagues, travelled by train to Belfast to enlist in the British armed forces. His was not an ordinary act of desertion, rather a simple man's response to what he felt was an uncaring Irish Army regime which treated its recruits with callous disregard for their well-being. He fought alongside Irishmen, Englishmen, Scotsmen and Welshmen throughout the Second World War and never once did anyone question his right to do so.

In examining some of the statistics concerning this particular issue, I was also struck by the fact that the first RAF bomber pilot to be shot down and killed in 1939 was Willie Murphy from Cork. His navigator, Larry Slattery from Thurles, became the longest serving prisoner of war.

Moreover, the co-pilot of the last RAF bomber to be shot down over Germany and killed in May 1945, as the horror came to an end, was an Irish man named Pilot Officer William Mackay. In common with many Irish families, I have my own experience, which is that my only aunt and godmother went to London in the early 1940s and met a young man who had grown up and been educated in Dublin. He had left the country for economic reasons and then joined the Irish Guards, as many Irish people subsequently did. He went on to be shot down over Tunisia and is buried, together with many others Irish comrades, in Tunis. This topic resonates with people up and down the country and all of them, including those who were directly connected to those who simply volunteered and those who are connected with those people who deserted for whatever reason, are welcoming of the fact that the Government and Members are debating this issue today in a positive and, hopefully, a constructive way.

When one considers those statistics of between 6,000 and 7,000 people who left the Defence Forces, it is interesting that at time, they were at the incredible strength of 42,000 men. If I have read the records correctly, between 1939 and 1945 the strength of the Defence Forces ranged between 40,000 and 60,000 at any given time. Professor Michael Kennedy of the Royal Irish Academy raises the point that while we know that perhaps 5,000 of these deserters went on to join the British armed forces, we do not know precisely what became of the rest of them and whether they became involved in the war effort in Britain. The Minister has highlighted the impact of the procedures that were in place at the time and he spoke of how those who were dismissed were disqualified for seven years from any public or Civil Service employment, including employment with local authorities or positions on any board or office of semi-State companies. Moreover, such individuals would have no pension entitlements from the day on which they absconded and no entitlement to receive unemployment assistance.

If one looks back at the period, there were pretty genuine reasons for the harsh nature of the imposition of such penalties. The Government of the day decided to punish desertion in this way rather than in the traditional military fashion with courts martial because of the scale of the desertion. It would have been impossible logistically to court martial 5,000 deserters and certainly it was not practical. At the time, according to the then Minister for Defence, Oscar Traynor in 1946:

It was not deemed feasible to hold courts martial on the large number, even if they could be apprehended. A question would arise as to whether they could be apprehended, or be apprehended for a long period of years.

The Minister at the time also held that courts martial would have resulted in more serious punishments for deserters. He stated "if these men had been tried by court martial and dealt with through the medium of courts martial many of them would have received very severe sentences". As for the exclusion from State employment, the Minister in 1946 gave preference to those who had not deserted and stated "whatever number of vacancies exist will be held for the men who served this nation loyally". The decision was criticised strongly by the Opposition parties, who thought this desertion should have been dealt with in the traditional manner. The Opposition parties on this occasion certainly are a hell of a lot more mild-mannered in their approach.

It is important to refer to the context of this issue, which often is viewed with the benefit of hindsight in the context of Irish neutrality and British-Irish relations. It is not viewed sufficiently often in the context of the human relations that existed between citizens in this State and those in Britain, that is, Scotland, England and Wales. Members are discussing a situation in which initiatives were taken by a fledgling State which was extremely anxious to demonstrate to its neighbours and to the world that it was an independent State which was proud of that sovereignty it recently had won and was determined to protect. It also was a policy which had widespread public support in this country. One should remember this was not the only country that did not rush to the war effort. The American Government, despite pleas for its support and participation, only became involved after the attack on Pearl Harbor. This context for what happened is extremely important and one should not lose sight of it. The Emergency years in Ireland were extremely difficult years for the public at large. Sustaining the Defence Forces to be able to respond to any eventuality by keeping it at a strength of between 40,000 and 60,000 people was a real challenge for the Government of the day and constituted a cost on the taxpayer of the time. While the State obviously did not suffer the horrors of war, it still was a time of crisis, rationing and privation for many citizens, and allowing desertion to go unpunished simply was not an option for the Government in 1945. Moreover, while one brutal war may have ended, who was to say that another would not have broken out? The Cold War was about to start and in the circumstances, no government could do anything other than to impose the most stringent penalties on deserters.

However, in the more enlightened and peaceful period we now are privileged to enjoy, one can look back with greater compassion and greater understanding. One can empathise with those people who, for whatever reason, felt the need to leave the Irish Defence Forces. Some of them, I am sure, were motivated by the highest ideals while others perhaps were not but saw an opportunity to get out of a country that was under extreme economic pressure at the time, as also is the case today. However, it is appropriate that the Bill the Minister of State has introduced will receive the support of all parties in this House and that Members will enact it as soon as possible. It is appropriate to tell those very few survivors of that turbulent period that the Houses of the Oireachtas respect the contribution they made to the Allied cause and to the war against a brutal and monstrous regime and that Members, albeit belatedly, thank them and congratulate them on what they did and that where their emotions were right, Members are happy and content as a Parliament to extend an amnesty to them. I am unsure of what practical benefit this will be to any of those remaining people affected but at least, like the Taoiseach's apology some weeks ago to the Magdalen laundry women, it has an important symbolic effect on all those involved. Consequently, with those few thoughts, I also commend the legislation to the House and thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for the opportunity to contribute.

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