Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if he will consider reducing the annual pension payments to former senior public servants, office holders, Taoisigh and Government Ministers. [10489/13]

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The position on the pensions of senior public service retirees, including the groups referred to in the Deputy’s question, is kept under review constantly by my Department. In this context, it is important to point out that, over the course of recent years, several measures have been taken by the Government which serve to substantially reduce pension awards and pensions in payment to former senior public servants, office holders, Taoisigh and Ministers.

A key measure in this context has been the public service pension reduction, PSPR, which applies to all public servants who retired on pensions of over €12,000 up to the end of February 2012, including retirees in the groups referred to in the Deputy's question. This progressively structured imposition on pensions was introduced on 1 January 2011, based on a set of income bands and percentage reductions and bearing most heavily on higher pension retirees. Acting on foot of my concerns with regard to high public service pensions - I acknowledge this is a concern for the public - I subsequently acted to make the PSPR even more progressive in application by legislating for an increase in the rate of PSPR on pension amounts in excess of €100,000, from 12% to 20% on the excess amount, effective from 1 January 2012.

In the case of former public servants who retired from March 2012 onwards, pensions have also been subject to a significant effective reduction, in so far as they have been impacted on by the pay reductions applied under the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act, the FEMPI legislation. These reductions have again been progressively structured such that higher paid public servants and public service retirees, including in the groups referred to by the Deputy, have proportionately been harder hit. In this context, some of the deepest pay cuts of all have been imposed on ministerial pay and these pay cuts will be fully reflected in the pension awards to current and future Ministers.

Future pension awards will also be moderated by the general pay ceiling of €200,000 for appointments to higher posts across the public service which I introduced immediately on coming into office. Revised salary rates in line with that ceiling are now in place for Secretaries General in the Civil Service who, in addition, can no longer receive notional added years or immediate pensions before preserved pension age.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House

The LRC recommendations this week for a new public service agreement contain further pay reductions which are concentrated on higher paid public servants. When implemented, these pay cuts will in due course impact on the pensions awarded to future retirees from the groups covered by the Deputy's question. In line with the LRC's recommendations, the Government also intends to align the reductions in public service pensions in payment with the reductions applied to serving staff, in respect of pensions in payment greater than €32,500. Further details of these pension impacts, including details of the necessary legislative changes, will be drawn up shortly.

Looking further ahead, the recently commenced single public service pension scheme which applies to all new joiner public servants, including civil servants, office holders and Ministers, will in time deliver significant savings to the public purse through reduced public service pensions. These long-term savings will derive from key features of the single scheme, principally an increase in pension age, inflation linkage of benefits and career average accrual.

The various FEMPI Act and other measures I have outlined indicate the significant action already taken in reducing the pensions payable currently or in the future to former senior public servants, office holders, Taoisigh and Ministers. In this general context it is important to point out that legal advice from the Attorney General states it is possible to apply proportionate reductions to existing pensions, as has been done to date in the FEMPI legislation. However, due account must be taken of the fact that pension benefits are generally regarded as vested property rights, which must be considered in the public interest when taking action.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Let us look at a sample of the figures involved in these pensions. The figures I am about to provide are net of the PSPR or the pension levy. Mr. Charlie McCreevy has a pension of €119,000-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should ask a question.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Michael Woods receives €122,000; Mr. Dick Spring receives €120,000; Mr. Bertie Ahern receives €150,000, while Mr. Brian Cowen the same amount. These are the pensions of which former office holders and others are still in receipt from the State. The Minister has bragged again today that he has introduced emergency legislation to deal with this issue. I believe and hope he understands privately that he has not even begun to deal adequately with this issue. No retired official, politician, Minister or Taoiseach should ever have been in receipt of pensions of that order, certainly not now when we are in the depths of an economic crisis and the Minister is putting his hand in the pockets of the working and middle classes. He told me previously that he could not deal with this issue and cited repeatedly concerns around property rights and pensions. Is that still his position? Is it the issue of property rights that is stopping him from dealing with these pensions?

We talked about the Croke Park phase two agreement a few moments ago. The reduction the Minister envisages in that agreement in the case of pensions of this order - a reduction of 5% - is a joke and a very bad one at that.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I have acknowledged from the outset of this Government's term in office that I regard the pensions of former officeholders and some retired senior public servants as excessive. I sought to deal with the matter virtually immediately when I took up my current position. That is why I introduced the additional pension reduction in the 2011 FEMPI legislation. It is true that I sought the advice of the Attorney General on how far I could go in that legislation. I went as far as I could, without putting the entire FEMPI edifice in danger, by increasing the pension reduction rate from 12% to 20%. Whether we like it or not, the formal advices are that pension benefits constitute a vested property right and are therefore protected by the Constitution. For that reason, there is a limit on what we can do. There are also constraints within the FEMPI architecture itself. I have explained this to the Deputy on several occasions. The argument that has to be made when introducing FEMPI legislation is that it is required in the national interest. Any FEMPI measure must accrue sufficient money to justify it as being required and must have wider application beyond a tiny cohort of the citizenry. To the best of my ability and to the greatest extent that I could, I crafted the legislation in a way that met those constitutional imperatives. Objectively, that is a fact. I share the Deputy's concern. The money involved is small in terms of reducing the overall national debt or solving the nation's finances. The Deputy is right when she says this is important to people who want fairness. We will strive again and again to find ways of doing this. If the new pay deal is agreed, there will be an incremental reduction of 5% in addition to how far we have already gone to claw back more.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I was interested to read the preamble to the legislation that was rushed through this House when IBRC was being wound up. It states that "in the achievement of the winding up of IBRC the common good may require permanent or temporary interference with the rights, including property rights, of persons". It is clear that property rights were interfered with when that institution was wound up. The Minister has never published the Attorney General's advice on this matter. I have never believed-----

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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That is not done, as the Deputy knows.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I know it is not a matter of normal convention. In light of the level of public concern about this issue, I think that advice should be published. Frankly, I do not buy the suggestion that the Minister cannot go much further in respect of these pensions because of constitutional constraints. I do not believe he is politically willing to take on this matter. The suggestion that the individuals on these extraordinary pensions have been hit hardest, as the Minister has described it, is really very troubling.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I did not say that at all.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister used that language in his initial response to me. These people have not been hit really hard at all. They should not be in receipt of these pensions at this level. The national interest and the common good require these pensions to be reined in.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We should really call this "speech time" rather than "Question Time". I have acknowledged that there is an issue here. I have sought to deal with it. Objectively, people will agree that my efforts have been fairly substantial in the context of the constraints within which I have had to operate. As the Deputy has acknowledged, it is not the convention to publish the views of the Attorney General. If one asks for advice from any lawyer in this regard, one will get the same advice. All one needs to do is read the case law. The McMahon judgment in the High Court was issued on foot of one of the cases that was tested. The pretence of doing something is always much better than actually grappling with the reality of having to find a way of doing things.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister should just publish the advice.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Sinn Féin way is to engage in the pretence of it-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Labour Party way is to take 5% off these pensions.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy should not shout people down.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It must be a joke.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I listened to her back-of-the-lorry speech. I ask her to listen to my answer. The Government is grappling with an array of economic difficulties that were presented to us by the disastrous Government that preceded this one. We are making steady progress on the way. Employment figures to be published today will indicate that the number of people in employment has increased for the first time in five years and that the unemployment rate decreased from 14.6% to 14.2% in the last quarter of 2012. We have largely moved the path of restructuring the banks to a place where there is growing confidence for investment in them. That is having an impact on the confidence of people in society. We have a way to go yet. I think the nihilism, negativity and destructive views we have heard from those, particularly in Sinn Féin, who are willing our country to fail will be rejected by voters.