Dáil debates

Wednesday, 27 February 2013

Ceisteanna - Questions - Priority Questions

Croke Park Agreement

1:35 pm

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if the savings in payroll he is seeking in 2013 are contingent on a successful conclusion to talks to extend the Croke Park Agreement; the way he will ensure that public services including frontline public services are maintained following completion of the talks; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10588/13]

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the measures he is taking in the current negotiations on an extended Croke Park deal to protect the current pay of low and middle income workers. [10490/13]

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 and 5 together.

Last December on behalf of Government I extended an invitation to the members of the public services committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to enter discussions with public service management on a new agenda for reductions in the cost of delivery of public services and substantial longer-term productivity improvements and workplace reforms. Intensive engagement has taken place in recent weeks between the parties to the discussions, which were facilitated by the Labour Relations Commission. The discussions concluded last Monday morning. I attended a plenary meeting of the parties to the discussions at which the Labour Relations Commission tabled proposals of an agreement.

This has been a remarkably challenging and complex process. The Government had sought to reach an agreement that allows substantial costs to be extracted and enhances public service productivity to the benefit of all those who rely on public services while also ensuring that savings were achieved in a way that is broadly equitable and that impacts most on those who are best able to afford it. The Government stated from the outset that to support its determination to restore order to the public finances and to meet its fiscal targets an additional saving of €1 billion in the public service pay and pensions bill would need to be achieved by the end of 2015 and that €300 million of this saving would be needed this year to meet our spending targets.

I am pleased to report that the revised measures as recommended by the Labour Relations Commission have been evaluated as meeting the budgetary targets of the Government over the lifetime of the agreement. They address many of the concerns expressed by the staff representatives during the negotiations as well. I recognise that all public service workers have already made a significant contribution to our economic recovery. However, these further measures are absolutely required to achieve a sustainable reduction in payroll costs sufficient to enable us to meet our fiscal targets. I acknowledge that the negotiators for the public service unions were able to mitigate the effect of several management proposals.

The draft agreement will run for three years from 1 July 2013. It contains several measures aimed at significant cost extraction and changes to terms and conditions of public service workers, all of which have the objective of returning the public service pay and pensions bill to a sustainable path. Detailed proposals were published yesterday evening and copies have been placed in the Oireachtas Library.

I will outline the main elements of the proposed agreement. This is a three year agreement to run from 1 July 2013. Over the course of the agreement the overall savings target set by Government will be achieved. There will be direct pay reductions for those on remuneration in excess of €65,000. An increment freeze of varying lengths at different pay ranges is provided for. There will be a three year freeze for those earning over €65,000, two three month freezes, i.e. two 15 month increment periods rather than 12 months periods, for those earning between €35,000 and €65,000 and a single three month freeze for those earning under €35,000, that is, instead of a 12 month increment cycle there will be a 15 month increment cycle. In the interests of equity there will be balancing measures for those on the maximum of the scale through loss of leave or partial temporary recoupment of an increment.

There will be additional productivity through extra hours worked from most public servants. Those currently working 35 hours or under will in future work a minimum of 37 hours. Those working between 35 and under 39 hours will in future work 39 hours. Remaining overtime costs will be paid at a reduced rate of time and a half at the first point of the scale for those on less than €35,0000, and time and a quarter to individuals on the scale above €35,000. Public servants on 39 hours who work overtime will make available one unpaid hour of overtime per week. Twilight payments will be eliminated and a reduced rate of time and three quarters for Sunday pay will be implemented. Supervision and substitution payments in the education sector will be eliminated. A range of additional savings associated with the agreement relate to the defence and prison sectors and public service pensions etc. and all of these are laid out in the published document.

A range of additional savings have been proposed and a series of long-term workplace reforms have been agreed as part of the deal as well. These include: revision of flexitime arrangements and work sharing patterns, revisions to redeployment provisions, strengthened performance management arrangements and proposals in the area of grade restructuring.

I have made clear throughout the process that this is a draft agreement based on proposals by the Labour Relations Commission. It is now a matter for the trade unions and the representative associations to consider the proposals in advance of putting them to a ballot of their members in accordance with their rules and regulations.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the opportunity to discuss the proposed agreement on public service pay with the Minister in the House. This is the first opportunity we have had to do so since the proposed agreement was announced earlier in the week. The Minister should agree that there is a lack of fairness in the proposals as they stand. There is nothing in the proposals about protecting all public services, especially front-line services, for the people. The document is rather light on reform. There is nothing in it about protecting emergency and 24 hour services needed by people on weekends. In particular it is most unfair that low paid workers who work weekends including people in the health service, whether nurses, nurses aides, or cleaning and catering staff in our hospitals, gardaí, firemen and prison officers are facing a cut of up to 8%.

The Minister avoided telling us the level of savings to be achieved. He did not mention a single figure. I think he is speaking about €1 billion over three years but some people thought it would be €1 billion per annum to 2015. He wants to save approximately €350 million per annum, which is 2% of the public sector pay and pensions bill of €17 billion. To achieve that 2% cut he will make certain weekend workers sacrifice up to 8% of their pay.

1:45 pm

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Absolute rubbish.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask the Deputy to put a question.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will be putting a question.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Any day now.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want a commitment from the Minister that he will equalise the pay of new recruits not only for teachers but also for nurses, gardaí and prison officers. It is not fair that some people earning €30,000 will suffer cuts of 8% while others earning €60,000 will not suffer cuts. Some people on similar pay rates will face different levels of reduction based on the amount of premium or weekend pay they earn.

I also ask the Minister to reconsider the issue of redundancies. The commitment to have no compulsory redundancies is heavily qualified and the document indicates that voluntary departure will be appropriate in some circumstances. I ask him to remove that clause and answer the question on the targeted redundancy package he has announced on several occasions. Will this provide additional savings to the Croke Park extension, or is it part of the agreement?

Does he not accept that when he is seeking a cut of 2% in the public sector payroll bill it is unfair to ask some low-paid workers to take cuts of 8%? That is the definition of unfairness.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am surprised and somewhat disappointed by the attitude of the Deputy opposite. The premise on which he asked his questions is false. The annual amount of savings required is €1 billion. It starts this year, although clearly this will be a half year, and it will ratchet up to €1 billion in annualised savings by 2015. The Deputy's percentages are wrong, therefore.

In regard to the Deputy's point about fairness, this is a fundamentally fair deal and many objective observers have taken the time to analyse the document. We have considered this very carefully. One of the Government's prime objectives was to extract the money we need in a way that is fair and affects everybody to some degree, and to ensure it affects those who are best able to bear it the most. This is why we are introducing a pay cut for those earning more than €65,000.

With regard to those in receipt of premium payments and on front line, there are people who work relatively short hours and maximise their pay by making sure it is in the premium sector. Some of that is required. There are various elements to it, the first of which is how the rosters are determined. Some people find themselves rostered for an extraordinary amount of Sunday and holiday work and, obviously, the rate is paid. We intended to reduce Sunday pay by one quarter, from double time to time and a half, but we settled on reducing it by only one eighth, to time and three quarters. We have examined who would be affected by this change and found it is fair and balanced. If one was to pick somebody who works only on Sundays or works a disproportionate number of Sundays and premium days, one might find him or her to be well outside the norm. However, taking 290,000 public sector workers, this has to be a complicated agreement in order to be as fair and objective as possible. We have made it complicated but, objectively, it is fair, unless one takes the extreme.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We did not have to travel far to find somebody to give the lie to the Minister's claim that the agreement is in any way fair or equitable. In fact, people came to us. A sample of the workers who are badly hit by this agreement were the firefighters who assembled outsides the gates of the Houses yesterday. Having studied the agreements, the firefighters clearly understand they will face cuts of between 8% and 10% to their take-home pay. Like others in the public service, these workers are just about getting by at present. They are just about meeting their bills, rent and mortgages and many of them have young families. The question they ask, not as commentators but as individuals who will experience the full impact of this deal, is what kind of bubble surrounds this Minister and his Government colleagues that prevents them from understanding the impact this deal will have. They reckon it will drive them into debt and many of their colleagues across the public sector will be driven into poverty. As the Minister will be aware, up to 10% of those currently in receipt of family income supports work in the public sector.

My question was about whether the Minister was going to protect low- and middle-income workers. The answer is that he did not protect them. He claimed, disingenuously, that the only pay cuts were for those earning in excess of €65,000. He might play with words but he knows full well that workers across the spectrum are going to experience real and substantial cuts to their wages. Nurses who earn €35,000 or €40,000 are looking at cuts of 8%. I ask him not to play the game of make-believe that only a certain section will experience the cuts.

I share the public frustration that certain people in the public service are overpaid and over-pensioned. There is no debate about that. These individuals include Ministers and Secretaries General. There are 6,000 of them across the system. The demand for fairness and reining in the pay bill should have been directed at that set of people. It is not fair or sustainable to ask the State to pay multiples of a fair salary to senior public officials, but the Minister was not prepared to go after them.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I must call the Minister to reply.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He was not prepared to go after them other than in the most light-handed of ways.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy has tabled a question on pensions.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is not about pensions; it is about pay. I have other issues to raise.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will call Deputies McDonald and Fleming again.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy is not asking questions because she does not want to hear answers.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I asked my question.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

She came to her conclusion before the document was even published. Within an hour of the conclusion of the talks she was on the national airwaves denouncing the agreement and those who had negotiated it, in a shocking and shabby abuse of people who had worked hard to represent their members. She did not even have the courtesy to read the document before she came to her venomous conclusion.

In regard to the general argument that she has made from the beginning, to the effect that we could make the savings by dealing with the 6,000 people who earn more than €100,000 out of the 290,000 people working in the public service, it is clear that if we had done so we would have achieved less than 20% of the savings we require while destroying our health services and the Judiciary. It is nonsense, but the problem is that Deputy McDonald and her party know it is nonsense. One need look no further than her party in Northern Ireland to see the policies it is implementing. She thinks she can perpetuate this falsehood to the future advantage of her party. This is a complex deal which was negotiated by professional and competent negotiators representing 390,000 workers. Some walked out of the process but the vast majority stayed in.

It is now a matter for workers in the public service to make their judgment. I ask Deputies not to use this House as a bully pit in terms of charging one way or the other on this issue. The facts are laid out and the agreement has been negotiated openly over many weeks by professional, competent negotiators. They will give advice to their members and each public sector worker will make his or her decision in that light.

1:55 pm

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Sean Fleming may put a question, but I ask for his co-operation in keeping it brief.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I wish to make two quick points. I do not believe whoever drafted the answer to my question read it but just issued the Minister with a statement on the Croke Park agreement. I asked about savings, but the Minister did not mention any figure. The only figure he mentioned was the €1 billion he mentioned in response to my follow-up question. He should have given us some of the figures for savings and I ask him to correct that omission.

Second, I put a simple question as to whether the agreement was contingent on the successful conclusion of the Croke Park deal. In other words, if there is not a successful conclusion, will the Minister legislate to have the proposals implemented? He did not deal with that issue. Will he confirm whether he will legislate if the deal is not agreed to?

On the issue of Members not contributing, it would be helpful if the members of the Labour Party national executive involved in the talks did not mention Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael every time they appeared on television. They are politicising the process already.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The answer to the question I put is a clear "No," the Minister is not prepared to prioritise low and middle income workers and he was certainly not prepared to prioritise front-line staff. This is an ongoing discussion in which we continually ask the Government to name and deal with the minority who are overpaid. The agreement reflects the fact that the Minister is not prepared to do this, although he will put his hand in the pocket of a garda, a firefighter or a nurse. He has no difficulty in doing this. People should bear in mind that the cuts being made in respect of front-line workers and clerical grade staff across the public service have an impact in terms of the services delivered.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy should put her question.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The statistics are startling. Some 9,500 carers are waiting for their applications to be processed. The average waiting time is now six months.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy should be fair and put her question.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

All of this is connected to a strategy that has been about shrinking the public service, hammering workers on very average incomes and protecting those at the top at all costs.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I must call on the Minister to make his final reply.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would be equally critical of the trade unions which are protecting people they, the Minister and I know are overpaid. They earn more than the British Prime Minister or the French President. We cannot continue with that system-----

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is Question Time. I must call on the Minister to make his final reply.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----or that level of overpayment while hammering workers further down the line.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Chair might well say this is Question Time, but Deputy Mary Lou McDonald has never been interested in answers, just in back of the lorry speeches denying the realities and the facts. This is a fair deal and it is now a matter for individual workers to come to their own conclusions on it. We need to make these savings. This is a negotiated deal that the workers' representatives determined as far as they could do so. They reshaped the proposals on the table. There is no magic formula. Deputy Gerry Adams can have his magic formula, suggesting we can get rid of the troika and that we do not need its money. Why would we need it if we could go abroad to avail of health care rather than depend on the health care system here? In his imaginary world or bubble, everybody lives on the average industrial wage, but he or she has a lifestyle to which no worker on the average industrial wage in this country can aspire. That fantasy land is hollow. The job of the Government is to provide real solutions to the economic crisis facing the country. We are making the necessary repairs incrementally and rebalancing the public pay bill.

I acknowledge the extraordinary work of public sector workers. Nobody defended the Croke Park agreement more than I in the past two years, on the basis that we ultimately needed to look at how we could ensure the payroll and services were fit for purpose and matched our income stream. This deal will allow us get to that position. I have made a commitment that if it is accepted, we will not ask more of public sector workers. I hope they will accept this on that basis and not be distracted by the fantasy or rhetoric of those who are not interested in the recovery of the country but only in political pointscoring.