Dáil debates

Wednesday, 13 February 2013

10:30 am

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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In the words of the Governor of the Central Bank, Mr. Honohan, household debt and financial distress is at an unprecedented level. We now have more than 180,000 residential mortgages in some form of distress or difficulty. Some 20,000 mortgages are in arrears for over two years and some 86,000 mortgages are in arrears for over 90 days. The situation is serious at a personal, social, financial and societal level. It is a national emergency which demands a significant response.

Photo of Eric ByrneEric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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It was caused by Fianna Fáil.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Governor says the situation is getting worse. On Sunday he said there are many people who cannot pay and that distressed mortgages are not being dealt with in significant numbers. He said this was the reason he and others in the Central Bank were tearing their hair out. I suggest many people across the country are tearing their hair out at the lack of any progress on this issue. The Central Bank is not happy at all with the progress the banks are making in this regard. Many Members of this House meet on a daily basis families in deep distress who are making reasonable efforts to cope with their situation but who are not getting a sufficient response from the banks. There is a strong correlation between mortgage arrears and mental health issues and there is a genuine crisis at this time.

The Governor of the Central Bank spoke about the need to be more directive with the banks, notwithstanding the risks associated with that. The Keane report was published 18 months ago, but very little has happened since in the context of practical, innovative responses from the banks. Only 12 split mortgages have been effected since then and only one mortgage-to-rent arrangement. Therefore, the response to the Keane recommendations by the banks has been appalling. Given that the banks got €9 billion in the context of their recapitalisation to deal with mortgage modification and losses and were supposed to use that funding intelligently, what plans has the Government to direct the banks to engage once and for all with customers and to deal with this issue? As Fiona Muldoon, the deputy Governor of the Central Bank, has said, the banks have been in complete denial on this issue for far too long.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Last weekend, I listened to the words of the Governor of the Central Bank as he spoke of his frustration and that of the Central Bank with regard to mortgage arrears. Mr. Honohan has played his part for the country in the negotiations, along with the Minister for Finance, in respect of the promissory notes. He expressed his frustration last weekend about the extent of engagement and decisiveness by the banks with regard to the mortgage arrears situation.

As we all know, some 100,000 people are not being allowed to play their full part in the development of our economy. The reason that cannot happen is the failure to bring about resolutions to their mortgage problems. In so far as our relationship with the Central Bank and the banks is concerned, Deputy Martin is aware that in an effort to deal with the issues we have set up a Cabinet sub-committee dealing with mortgage arrears and mortgages, and that we have now extended that to deal with banking and access to credit.

I am not happy at all with the level of resolution that has been achieved. Reports have come from the banks, particularly the two pillar banks, of decisions arrived at in respect of mortgage holders who are in distress. Many of these decisions have been to make the mortgages interest-only for a period, which is not a long-term solution to the problem. The regulator attended a recent meeting at which he outlined the proposals of the Central Bank, and inspectors from the Central Bank are now beginning to call to banks in regard to the mortgage code.

In so far as the Oireachtas is concerned, we have enacted the Personal Insolvency Bill, and all Members are aware of its complexities. The personal insolvency agency will open its doors early in the summer and I hope that between now and then the banks will realise that this offers an incentive to them to get on with the business of dealing with mortgage holders who are in distress and arrears and to work out resolutions. They must also deal with the fact that they received sufficient moneys in the recapitalisation to deal with write-downs in some cases.

The issues that were raised in the House following the Keane report have been followed through and implemented, but not to the extent one would wish, in terms of the different resolution strategies. The advice and guidelines and the websites providing information on how to keep families in their homes are important for everybody here. The mortgage-to-rent scheme was expected to deal with more than 500 cases. It is currently involved with 100 cases and a further 100 are at an early stage of the process. This scheme and other such interventions cannot be rushed for any of the parties. For example, the process involves a 60-day decision period and a 20-day cooling-off period.

I would like to believe that the focus put on this issue by the Governor of the Central Bank and the extension of the remit of public service directors by the Minster for Finance to report to the Cabinet sub-committee on what is happening will provide a new emphasis on the need to get as many of these people as possible back to being able to contribute to the general economy as quickly as possible, not only for their psychological good, but also to enable them make a real contribution to the economy.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his response, but I remain unconvinced of the impact of what the Taoiseach has said is happening. Up to now, the standard response has been the interest-only payment approach, comprising 99% of restructures to date. I put it to the Taoiseach that as the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, said last week, the banks have been given the money to write down, write off or restructure debts in accordance with the original capital assessments completed more than 18 months ago. That simply has not happened.

It seems to me that the standard orthodoxies in terms of the relationship between the Government and the banks have simply not worked for the person on the street, the family in mortgage arrears and the family in genuine distress and crisis. A different approach is required. It is alarming to hear the Governor of the Central Bank say that officials in that institution are "tearing their hair out" in frustration at their inability to get a sense of how the banks are dealing with this issue and engaging with families and customers. Given that they received €9 billion of taxpayers' money, it seems to me that it is time for the message to get through to the banks - in my view, the message must come from the shareholder, in respect of one of the major banks, and from the Government - that it is time for them to look after citizens in a reasonable and effective way. Many of those who are in significant distress are willing to co-operate and want to fulfil their debts.

10:40 am

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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They want to pay their debts, but they need the space and capacity to do so. We need innovative and radical solutions. Some economists have suggested a permanent interest rate reduction, which would enable the banks to get all of their capital back at a more affordable monthly rate. The question of split mortgages should have been followed through on long before now. It is unclear whether the Personal Insolvency Act 2012 will deal with many of these areas. Unfortunately, it seems that one must almost be at the most insolvent end of the spectrum before one can avail of that legislation. I hope it will bring some relief. I put it to the Taoiseach that the Government should get involved in what the Governor of the Central Bank has described as a "directive" approach to the banks on specific policies for dealing with this issue.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I like the Deputy's new-found focus on dealing with the complex problems we have now. One would swear that the Governor of the Central Bank did not have to make a telephone call from a street corner in Frankfurt a few years ago to say the IMF was in here.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach should answer the question.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Martin's conversion is most welcome.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Taoiseach needs to get into the present.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate the number of constructive suggestions he has made.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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The election is over long ago.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We do not forget the reasons all of this happened. On behalf of the Government, I wrote to the regulator 18 months ago to ask him if he required further powers as regulator.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Write to Santy.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I said that if he did, the Government would consider them and respond to him. The regulator made it clear that he did not need any further powers at that time.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Everything is grand.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Central Bank required the lenders to submit their proposals for addressing the problem of distressed mortgages. As the Deputy is aware, those options included split mortgages, trade-down mortgages, restructuring of mortgage payments and forbearance.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There have been just 12 split mortgages to date.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy will appreciate that the scale of the devastation his Government left behind meant that teams from the Central Bank and the Department of Finance had to spend the last 15 months dealing with the European Central Bank before last week's very welcome agreement could be reached. Having heard the banks state their case, I understand they have trained their personnel to-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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To collect what they can.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----deal with distressed mortgage holders.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach has been telling us that for the last two years.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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They have been trained to send out the bailiffs.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we please have a reply without interruption?

Photo of Barry CowenBarry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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This is an old record.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I remind Deputy Cowen that AIB is now saying it will be able to deal with 1,500 cases a month.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach needs to change the script.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I welcome that if that is the case. I hope they are not all put on interest-only payments because resolutions are needed.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach must be joking.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There is enormous relief for distressed mortgage holders and their families when it becomes clear that they are not in danger of losing their houses.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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More and more people are getting into trouble every week.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When a solution is arrived at in these cases, the people in question can contribute fully to the growth and development of the economy. Approximately 100,000 people are being prevented from so doing because of a lack of resolution in their cases. The personal insolvency agency is to be established before the summer. Quite rightly, the focus and concentration of the Central Bank and the Government, through the Cabinet committee, is on the opportunity to focus on distressed mortgage holders, bring about resolutions and clean up the mess the previous Government left behind it.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The banks were given €9 billion for these purposes.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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It is getting worse by the day.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I want to talk about a four year old boy from Dundalk - a wee lad called Billy - who was born profoundly deaf. When he was two and a half years old, he was given a cochlear implant. His mother has spoken about how he cried the first time he was able to hear noise. It was a hugely emotional time for the family. This is a very good example of how technology can improve lives. The problem is that Billy had to wait until he was two and a half because of funding issues.

Photo of Eric ByrneEric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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America.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The level of funding set aside for such children in this State, who receive just one implant, continues to be inadequate. A single implant costs between €18,000 and €20,000. Internationally, it is considered best practice to implant both ears. The HSE accepts this. The provision of just one implant impairs the child's ability to distinguish where noises are coming from and limits his or her ability to hear in noisy places like classrooms and the Dáil Chamber. The big problem as the child grows is that the nerves to which the implant should be connected die if they are not being used, which means the hope of a further implant is lost. These children are in a race against time. This is a hugely important treatment for them and for other children who are born deaf. The cost is not prohibitive. I ask the Taoiseach to consult the Minister for Health and the Cabinet committee on health as part of an effort to secure agreement for the release of the funding resources that will allow for bilateral cochlear implants to be made available to all the children who are affected.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This is a most frustrating situation for parents and particularly for the children who require cochlear implants. I hope little Billy will be able to have his problem resolved in due course. Deputy Adams is aware that there are about 700 involved here every year and I think it is about 200 children. The average cost of a single cochlear implant is between €18,000 and €20,000. A decision was made in the United Kingdom to give bilateral implants to children and adults who need them. I understand that where surgery is required by children under the age of six, it is done at Temple Street Children's Hospital. I do not know the details of little Billy's case. A second implant is not provided in a number of these cases because of the particular circumstances of the case in question.

Beaumont Hospital, which deals with this in the main, has put forward its business proposal in regard to bilateral cochlear implants. A budget of €4.1 million is available this year for cochlear implants. I understand that 48 adults and 42 children were treated last year. I have spoken to the Minister, Deputy Reilly, about this issue. He will consider the business proposal that Beaumont Hospital has submitted to the HSE in the hope that these cases can be dealt with efficiently and speedily. I understand that adults who are referred are seen within six to nine months. Children normally receive an implant within six to seven months, depending on the assessment of the multidisciplinary team. I will have the Minister examine the business proposition that has been put forward by Beaumont Hospital. As I have said, I do not know little Billy's particular case. The assessment of the multidisciplinary team will determine whether he is suitable for a bilateral cochlear implant.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Taoiseach for that answer. I have used Billy's case to personalise and humanise the issue. He has received a single cochlear implant. The point I am trying to make is that the doctors and the HSE are saying that best practice for children involves giving them two implants. The HSE estimates that the cost of doing this would be no more than €4 million, which is not an awful lot of money, even in these straitened times. Some of these children are not even diagnosed as being deaf until they are 18 months old.

Can anyone imagine a child like Billy hearing no noise until he is two and a half years old? As a citizen, he has a right to hear, a right to have a voice and a right to be heard. The Government has the solution. I know the Taoiseach cannot stand up and on the hoof give commitments on these matters, but it is quite simple. A sum of €4 million will cure this problem for all of these young citizens. On behalf of the parents, particularly those are running a campaign on the issue, I ask that the Minister for Health and the Taoiseach come to it in a very positive way. It is something the Government could put right very easily.

10:50 am

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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A positive approach will be taken towards it. Since the programme began 17 years ago, 700 patients have received cochlear implants. Some 90 procedures were carried out in 2012, of which 48 involved adults, while 42 involved children. The Deputy is correct that in 2009 the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence in the United Kingdom recommended bilateral cochlear implantation as best practice for children. In Ireland, it is only single implantation that takes place, except in a very small number of cases in which children might have been the victims of meningitis or suffer from blindness.

Beaumont Hospital and HSE management have met to discuss the proposition made by Beaumont Hospital. The purpose of the meeting and others to follow was and is to identify the options for developing bilateral implementation processes for children. Obviously, an important element would be the development of very clear clinical criteria to prioritise the cases that should be dealt with.

I am glad the Deputy has raised the issue which is very important for parents and, more particularly, children. As I said, the process is under way. There is an allocation of €4.1 million this year and the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, will follow through with the HSE and Beaumont Hospital management in developing that process and putting in place clear criteria to see whether we should follow the decision taken in 2009 by the national institute in the United Kingdom on bilateral cochlear implantation. The Deputy will be kept informed on the matter.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Some of us were less than impressed last week with the hype with great fanfare around the so-called deal on the promissory notes. Some 100,000 people took to the streets at the weekend who clearly did not believe much had changed for them. This morning Professor Patrick Honohan, the Governor of the Central Bank, reminded us that household financial distress was at extraordinary and unprecedented levels, yet today we understand the Minister for Finance will publish a Finance Bill that will still require hundreds of thousands of families to pay a tax on their family home that they simply cannot afford. There will, I understand, be no exemptions for the unemployed, pensioners, the 160,000 or so people in mortgage distress and workers who have had their incomes savaged such as the fully qualified nurse who as reported in the newspapers today is unable to pay her bills and a pensioner in my constituency who tells me that, despite having an income of just €200 a week, she is facing a bill of €800 a year in property tax when in March the demands drop. Very simply, if the deal on the promissory notes was such a wonderful achievement, as the Taoiseach claims, and, as he also claims, is going to leave us with €1 billion more in 2014 and 2015, can he announce today that, as he now has the money, he will abolish the property tax and not force the unemployed, pensioners, those in mortgage distress and others struggling to pay their bills to pay a tax on their homes that they simply cannot afford? If it was a real deal, the Taoiseach could afford to do this. He should make that commitment and promise and give a little hope and relief to ordinary people.

Photo of Michael RingMichael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Even Deputy Finian McGrath is laughing at the Deputy.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Finian will sign up to it.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Since Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett came to the House, he has never been impressed by anything but the quality of the demonstrations he can have on the streets. That is his weekly fix.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is the only thing that gets results.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy has had his say. Let us listen to the reply.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Taoiseach hates to admit it, but it is the only thing that gets results.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On the promissory note agreement with the ECB, nobody on the Government side said it was going to be the end of all our difficulties.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Is it going to be the end of anything?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Everybody said it was a relief on the debt sustainability of the country which would make Ireland more attractive in terms of investment and provide an opportunity for those in lending institutions to access the markets and greater credit for lending to business to create jobs.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It is not going to happen.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Contrary to what the Deputy said and while it was a major and an historic achievement for the country, we never indicated anything other than we still had a long way to go.

The property tax legislation passed through the House before Christmas.

Photo of Barry CowenBarry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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In 20 minutes.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett does realise it has passed into law.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Finance Bill is being published today. Where are the exemptions?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The amendments being produced today by the Minister for Finance will be available to the Deputy at 1.30 p.m. All of the amendments involve concessions in respect of the property tax. The good lady mentioned by the Deputy will be able to defer her property charge based on the income figures mentioned. It is a case of very clear guidelines being laid out. There are changes in respect of social housing, on the issue of charitable organisations owning property and for those hard-pressed householders who purchased homes afflicted by pyrite. These are changes the Minister has recognised need to be made in order to have it as fair as possible. The Deputy is also aware that the vast proportion of the property tax collected will be spent in local areas in providing local services for local people. In that sense, the Bill and the amendments to be made available at 1.30 p.m. today are nothing but exemptions and concessions that the Minister has recognised are necessary.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Therefore, the truth about the deal becomes clear. It is not going to make a whit of difference-----

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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In the Deputy’s eyes.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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-----to the people who are being hammered by cuts and on whom it is now planned to impose a further burden amounting to hundreds of euro a year by way of property charges. I know damn well that the Finance Bill under which this burden is going to be imposed was passed at the end of last year. However, given that the Taoiseach claims that we have saved ourselves billions of euro, why will further exemptions not be announced by the Minister for Finance today to remove from the property tax net pensioners, those on disability allowance, those who have lost their jobs, those whose incomes have been savaged-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy put his question?

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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-----such as fully qualified nurses who cannot pay their bills? Why are there no exemptions or relief for them? Is that the truth about the deal made last week and the so-called exemptions being announced today, namely, that there is nothing for the people who are being hammered?

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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There are exemptions for the Independents.

Photo of Brendan GriffinBrendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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Give back the leader’s allowance.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Is that the best the Taoiseach can do?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The legislation introducing the property tax has now passed into law. It is an alternative to increases in income tax which would be a tax on jobs, as the Deputy knows and about which he tends to spout on a regular basis in the House.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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A tax on homes is unfair and unjust.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As the Deputy knows, the Bill and the amendments to be published at 1.30 p.m. contain quite a number of concessions.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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What about houses affected by radon?

11:00 am

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There are exemptions for newly constructed but unsold residential properties and they correspond to exemptions from the household charge where ownership is vested in a public body; where a principal private residence is unoccupied by reason of long-term mental or physical infirmity; a mobile home, vehicle or vessels; and property fully subject to commercial rates. The issue of the pyrite-afflicted homes is a concession that I am sure the Deputy welcomes even in the continued misery he puts out here every week.

As the Minister pointed out, there will be a saving to the taxpayer of €1 billion in respect of the promissory note and a requirement to borrow €20 billion less over the next ten years. That has been reflected in some recognition by rating agencies of the status of the country. It has also been reflected in the international assessment of Ireland as being an ideal location in which to invest with job opportunities resulting from that.

I repeat that the vast majority of the property tax being collected will be spent in local areas for local services for local people so they will see where their contributions go. This is not easy. We all know that thousands of people in our country are challenged but the situation this week is better than it was last week because of the agreement to the promissory note deal. If we had not arrived at that position, Deputy Boyd Barrett would be the first person spouting about the €3.1 billion that must be borrowed every March, which was the situation left behind by the party sitting in front of him.