Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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To ask the Minister for Defence the total amount of pay and allowance and other remuneration for the Defence Forces in 2012; the total savings he hopes to make in this in 2013-2015; the method by which he will procure such savings; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6409/13]

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Remuneration for the Permanent Defence Force in 2012 amounted to €459.76 million. This consisted of €424.76 million on pay and €35 million on allowances. An additional €3.5 million in remuneration for the Reserve Defence Force was also expended in 2012.

As the Deputy is aware, talks on an extension to the Public Service Agreement 2010–2014 began last month with a view to achieving savings in the order of €1 billion from the public service pay and pensions bill in the period to the end of 2015 to underpin the necessary fiscal consolidation. During these talks the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, set out a requirement of savings from each sector in the period to the end of 2015 with savings of €35 million being sought from the defence sector. This equates to 3.5% which is the defence sector’s proportion of the total public service pay bill for 2013.

The Government is committed to seeking agreement with staff representatives on the measures to be introduced to achieve the necessary savings in the public service pay and pensions bill. Discussions have commenced, facilitated by the Labour Relations Commission and led by officials of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, between public service management and staff representatives on a new agreement on measures to be introduced to achieve the necessary savings in the public service pay and pensions bill. In parallel with central discussions to identify those savings which would apply across all sectors, defence sector management and the Defence Forces representative associations continue to discuss how additional measures could help to deliver savings and productivity gains to contribute to the defence sector’s proportion of savings to the €1 billion target.

As these discussions are still ongoing, I am sure the Deputy will appreciate that the specifics are confidential to the parties involved and it would be inappropriate for me to comment further on the matter.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for his response. We are conscious of the priority the Government has in this area of the review of the Croke Park agreement and we are conscious of the need to continue to achieve savings across the public service. In tabling this question I am asking the Minister to be an advocate for the members of the Defence Forces. I am asking him to recognise that the Defence Forces have been to a very large extent a pioneer in the area of public service reform. The Minister has achieved significant reform in a very short timeframe. I am conscious of the fact that between 1997 and 2007 expenditure on the Defence Forces decreased by approximately 50% as a share of the national income.

I am also conscious, as I am sure is the Minister, that the allowances paid to members of the Defence Forces are, by and large, part of core pay and therefore must be protected. In the work he is doing in this area, is the Minister conscious that a significant number of members of the Defence Forces are in receipt of family income supplement and that fact indicates that the pay of these serving men and women, of whom this State is rightly proud, is at a level that cannot bear further reduction? My critical question is, notwithstanding the needs to achieve savings, whether the Minister is willing to be a personal advocate for the members of the Defence Forces on this particular issue.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I give the Deputy every assurance that I have great respect for the fantastic achievements in recent years made within the Department of Defence and the Defence Forces in the areas of modernisation, effecting change and effecting substantial cost savings, which are evident right across the board. The Department of Defence is a model for public service reform that could well be replicated in other Departments. A great deal has been achieved. In the short time I have been Minister, which is less than two years, we have had the reorganisation of the Defence Forces, moving from a three to a two battalion structure. We have had the closure of Army barracks with which we have dealt now, happily, and that will not be revisited. Four Army barracks have been closed. There is also the reorganisation of the Reserve Defence Force. Substantial efficiencies have been effected by all of the events that have happened in implementation. We have also had the very beneficial decision made many years ago that now applies whereby when the Defence Forces sell property owned by them the proceeds can be reinvested to provide proper resources.

I am very conscious of the reality that some members of the Defence Forces are resorting to supplementary welfare allowance to supplement their finances. It is important we acknowledge that basic line pay and military service allowance constitute core play in the Defence Forces.

The question of what other allowances might be considered to be part of core pay is a matter for discussion between the Department and representative associations for the Defence Forces. It is important to understand that the term "allowances" in the defence sector covers a variety of payment types that are different from each other. Some are intended to reimburse expenses and do not actually form part of remuneration at all. Some payments are made in recognition of particular technical or professional qualifications while other allowances recognise particularly onerous duties, whether at home or overseas, which fall outside the norms taken into account in setting basic pay, while also reflecting the fact that the Defence Forces do not receive overtime.

I assure the Deputy that I am very conscious of this issue and that, in the context of the public finances and the savings to be achieved, it is important that we engage and look constructively at savings that may be effected. I very much welcome the constructive engagement of the representative bodies. One key decision that was made was that the strength of the Defence Forces would be maintained at 9,500. The Government made the decision, at my request, in the lead-in to the 2012 budget. That decision was designed to ensure that we maintained the strength of the Defence Forces but maintaining the strength leads to certain consequences, namely that we must have the funding available to meet the basic and core pay requirements. Nevertheless, it is important that we constantly examine where savings can be effected. There is a remit from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to engage and constructive engagement is taking place. I do not want to say any more about that but I hope that we will, in the context of that engagement, be able to identify savings that can be implemented and applied without in any way undermining the effectiveness or the strength of the Defence Forces.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister's response because it is somewhat positive. Can we take it that the Minister would accept that a rather crude, pro rata percentage cut across the board of 3.5%, which has been spoken of and alluded to in his own response, is not the way to approach the particular circumstances of the 9,500 members of the Defence Forces?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The matter is being approached in a particular manner, in the context of Departments being requested to achieve certain savings. The outcome of the discussions with regard to the individual Departments and the direct negotiations that the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is engaged in must be awaited.