Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I call on Deputy Stanton to resume his speech. He has 18 minutes.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I will resume where I concluded last week. This Bill has to do with the number of Deputies and Dáil constituencies-----

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I apologise, as my iPad seems to be causing a problem. In some areas, the Bill's proposed changes will result in large constituencies. The Minister of State, Deputy Ring, is in a large constituency. He travels its length and breadth late at night on roads that might not be the best. It would be demanding for anyone.

A number of other constituencies will become large. For example, travelling to every village and crossroads in Kerry will be demanding, given its peninsulas. Donegal is another such constituency. West Cork is remaining more or less the same, but it is a sprawling constituency. Tipperary will become a single, large constituency. My constituency of Cork East is already quite large. Travelling from one end of it to the other is virtually a day's work.

It might be time to take stock of this situation, with our sprawling constituencies and constituents' expectations and demands, almost unique to Ireland, that Deputies be available. That said, being available to meet constituents, listen to their issues and address their problems is a good aspect.

Ireland is one of only two countries that uses PR-STV. It leads to a great deal of competition in constituencies on local matters, resulting in local matters becoming important. Our colleagues in other jurisdictions are amazed by the amount of local work that Deputies are expected to do. In my constituency, people call to my office about potholes, briars, lighting, housing and footpaths. All of my colleagues are in the same boat. Strictly speaking, those issues are under the remit of councillors. However, there is a degree of competition. If the Minister of State and I were from the same constituency and I told someone who approached me that his or her issue was a council matter, he or she would go to the Minister of State instead. If he made representations and got the job done, he would get the votes, because I did nothing to help on the grounds that it was a council issue. Members are caught.

In considering this Bill we have an opportunity to review our electoral system. I welcome the fact that this will be done via the constitutional convention, the constitutional day and so forth, but I am concerned by the time that process will take. When a report is made on this issue, we will be facing into another election and the cycle could start again. I urge that this issue be examined carefully.

I am particularly taken by the New Zealand model. New Zealand has gone through a number of electoral reforms. It has a mixed member proportional representation system. Alongside single-seat constituencies, approximately one third of Members are elected from a party list system. The result is smaller geographical constituencies, an absence of constituency rivalries between national elected politicians and a list system that preserves proportionality, in that all parties have seats in the Parliament depending on the proportion of votes they achieve. This system ticks many boxes and perhaps we should consider it. Voters would effectively have two votes. Thresholds determine the number of seats allocated to each party's list. Germany has a similar system. Maybe it is time that we started examining different systems.

I make these points in light of the expectation that we will move to 158 Deputies and to 40 constituencies that are geographically large. A constituency's size does not have much of an impact on the east coast, as the coast's population is increasing. On the west coast and in the part of the country from which I come, though, four or five Deputies are expected to travel the length and breadth of their respective sprawling constituencies.

I had a conversation with a gentleman at approximately 10 p.m. yesterday. He asked me why I was at my desk at that time. When I told him that I was working because, staying in Dublin overnight as I was, I might as well be working as watching television in a hotel, he replied that putting in such hours was bad for my health. It made me stop and ask myself about what Deputies were doing. Some of us work 18 hours per day. I was up at 6.30 a.m. today and attended my first meeting at 7.30 a.m. Many of us work this way. In some cases, we work seven days per week, as we are expected to attend functions on Saturdays and Sundays. We must stop and take stock of what we are doing. Given the system in which we work, are we providing the best possible service to our constituents?

People ask why this Chamber is often empty. The Seanad Chamber virtually saw a full attendance during the debates a couple of weeks ago. I am Chairman of the justice committee, which has launched six or seven reports in the past year. Due to scheduling and other demands, members are pulled away from important committee debates.

This Bill gives me the opportunity to put on record some ideas on how constituencies could be organised. The single-seat constituency with a mixed list system would result in smaller geographical areas and Members could remain tied to local issues to the current extent, as they would be alone in their constituencies. A recall system in respect of Deputies who decide not to work might be necessary, but the requisite threshold should be high. Other countries use such a system.

I welcome the programme for Government's promise of the establishment of an electoral commission. The Minister of State might outline the position and when the relevant legislation will be before the House. Such an electoral commission would be important, as we must begin examining turnouts and how registers are put together. A permanently established electoral commission would also deal with referenda and the attendant issues, for example, how they are run. An electoral commission could and should perform other functions. I urge the Government to ensure that the legislation be introduced and debated as soon as possible, as all of the issues that I have raised are linked to how we do our business.

Many speakers have referred to electoral registers and the mess they are in. The problems with them are well known. We must examine how the registers are compiled.

Electoral reform is being discussed in the context of major reforms at local government level, which are welcome. Local government reform is necessary as it has not been reformed for almost 100 years. The issue is being debated around the country. The abolition of town councils has been proposed. I accept that I am straying somewhat from the issue but it is related in some respects. Traditional town councils and mayors ensured the town was represented, especially towns with mayors. Across Europe and the United States there are mayors in many towns, someone who can speak for the town. In Cobh last year, the Titaniccentenary was celebrated and the mayor of the town council, Jim Quinlan, did amazing work for the year. He spoke for the town and represented it at many functions. He provided leadership. We must consider preserving that in some way in the new system. The argument has been made that many new towns have developed that do not have town councils but perhaps they should have some form of representative body. Perhaps we should expand boundaries a little more. I am concerned with how the reforms are developing. When the legislation is introduced, I would like to have a detailed examination of the proposals to see how they might work.

We have made some small changes to how we do business in the Dáil. I commend the Chief Whip on the introduction of Dáil reform and Members for agreeing to the proposals on which I have worked for some years. I would like to see more such changes in the future. There has been much talk about behaviour in the Chamber and the adversarial methodologies we use. We could examine that too.

In other countries when a Minister is appointed, if he or she is a member of parliament he or she resigns his or her seat. In effect, the parliament and executive are separate. That is the case in Sweden, France and Norway. We could examine such a system in the context of overall reform. It would allow a Minister to concentrate on his or her Ministry and not have to worry about the constituency or be obliged to attend Parliament. The Parliament would therefore be more independent of the Executive. One criticism is that the Executive controls the Parliament completely. That is still the case. We must reform our approach. One way to do that would be to remove the Executive from the Parliament and when Executive members come to Parliament they would be answerable to it and have to get legislation through it. It is something to consider in the context of a wider debate.

I am concerned about the size of many constituencies, especially in remote rural areas. Constituencies are getting bigger, which is putting considerable demands on Deputies to travel in order to represent the entire constituency. For the many reasons I have outlined, we must begin to consider a total and fundamental change. I urge that the electoral commission that was established would be introduced and also that the Constitutional Convention is asked to examine the issue sooner rather than later.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to share five minutes of my time with Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I am pleased to have an opportunity to contribute on the Bill. The main issue is to implement the recommendations of the Constituency Commission report 2012.

The Bill provides for a reduction in the number of Deputies from 166 to 158. The measure must be examined in the context of local government reform. The reduction in the number of Deputies is small but it is proposed to significantly reduce the overall number of councillors. Following such changes, we will have one of the highest ratios of population to public representatives in the western world. It could be as high as one councillor per 4,000 of population. One could ask whether that is a good idea to introduce such a change at the same time as we are reducing the number of Deputies.

Many are concerned about the breach of county boundaries, which is most evident along the western seaboard. Many speakers have expressed delight at Leitrim being left as a single county. I agree with that. However, one must also examine the situation of Roscommon, which has had its county boundaries breached on a number of occasions. Every county in Connacht has been given a part of Roscommon at some stage.

Anthony Lawlor (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That sends a message.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I recall when I was elected in 1975 for the first time that it was with the help of the people of south Roscommon. I was most grateful for their support. People to whom I have spoken in Roscommon reminded me that not only was south Roscommon included with Leitrim in the past, but it was also included with Longford, which necessitated the breach of a provincial boundary. That is not the way to go. Breaching a provincial boundary is worse than breaching a county boundary. It is not fair to make such changes. Neither is it fair when one considers the reduced representation from the combined loss of seats in constituencies covering Galway, Mayo and Roscommon.

In terms of local government representation, at one extreme, one has a large number of councillors per head of population in France. In this country, following the introduction of the new proposals we will probably have councillors representing a greater proportion of the population. We do not yet have the constituencies for local authorities. I accept there is talk of extra county councillors, but I will leave that to one side for the moment.

I am concerned at the increasingly reduced voter turnout at every election. I visited Belfast recently as a member of the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. We met in particular those from the Unionist tradition – people who feel they are abandoned and isolated and devoid of local representation. There are many reasons for that. One might be that we do not have enough people standing for election, but also people have difficulty in trying to get their message across.

I do not agree with the abolition of town councils. Deputy Stanton referred to the role of the mayor in his local area, which is also an important position. I accept that my party proposed a reduction in the number of vocational education committees and the Government proceeded with that. One could ask why counties are being amalgamated in that regard. Yesterday, we heard from Leader programmes from the west in particular and local partnerships in urban areas. They suggested that they might be losing out on funding. Such bodies deal with local people.

We set up a commission and we would all welcome amendments to it. I am not sure about the direction in which we are going. Previously, we tried to take a political approach involving Ministers setting political boundaries. The commission has come up with proposals. The decision to reduce the number of Deputies has led to a breach of boundaries. In the overall operation of democracy in this country I wonder whether we are going the right way because we do not have the same level of engagement with people as heretofore. I am concerned that if we continue in the same direction and reduce the number of councillors as well, people will feel more abandoned and isolated, which would not be good for democracy.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Tá áthas orm deis a bheith agam labhairt ar an mBille tábhachtach seo. Táim cinnte go nglacfar le moltaí an choimisiúin, mar níl aon rogha gan glacadh leo. Is deis é seo le athbhreithniú a dhéanamh ar chéard atá ag tarlú agus ar pholasaithe an Rialtais agus an Oireachtais maidir le athnuachan a dhéanamh ar an gcóras polaitíochta. Ar ndóigh, caithfimid chuimhniú i gcónaí go bhfuil an córas atá againn leagtha síos sa mBunreacht.

Sula dtiocfaidh mé chuig ábhar an Bhille seo, ba mhaith liom a rá go bhfuil athrú amháin go mba mhaith liom a fheiceáil. Tá mé cinnte go dtiocfaidh an Teacht Dála atá amach romham liom ar an cheist seo. An t-athrú sin ná, áit ar bith a bhfuil seirbhís farantóireachta laethúil ag dul chuig oileán, ba cheart go mbeadh an vóta ar an lá céanna ar na hoileáin agus atá sé ar an mhórthír. Beidh mise ag réiteach reachtaíochta le cur faoi bhráid na Dála ar an bhunús sin agus beidh mé ag moladh gur amhail a bheidh sé agus nach mbeidh eisceacht ar bith ach sa gcás nach bhfuil seirbhís laethúil farantóireachta chuig na hoileáin.

Níl aon chúis nach mbeadh an vóta ar na hoileáin ar an lá céanna. Tá deiseanna taistil go leor ann, idir báid, ingearáin agus eitleáin leis na boscaí vótála a thabhairt ar ais. Téann díospóireachtaí ar aghaidh go dtí lá deiridh an toghcháin anois. Bhíodh tráth ann nuair nach mbeadh aon díospóireacht nó aon phlé ar thoghchán lá roimh an toghchán. Tá deireadh le sin anois agus bíonn an plé ann go meánlae an lae sin. Cén fáth nach mbeadh an buntáiste céanna ag na hoileánaigh chun bheith páirteach sa toghchán agus atá ag chuile duine eile?

As I said in Irish, we can presume that this Bill will be passed without any amendment to the proposed constituencies. It would be wrong for us to interfere with the recommendations of an independent commission. Whether the terms of reference of that commission were right or wrong, they were approved by the Dáil and, therefore, it is not for us to change them now. I am sure the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Ring, might regret some of those terms of reference, particularly the reduction in the number of seats, which has effectively split Mayo for the first time.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is a disgrace.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It became an inevitability when the Government decided to reduce the number of seats from 166 to fewer than 160. There is great disappointment in south Mayo that it is not part of a wider Mayo constituency, although I believe the people are quite willing to recognise that geographically I live nearer to them than the Mayo Deputies, given that I live only five miles from the Mayo border-----

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy will not replace me, no matter how he tries.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I would not expect to, but I would be a good substitute. I am sure the Minister will tell them how much I did for him when I was Minister and that he will reciprocate at this time.

Mayo people are passionate about their county. For a county that has not enjoyed great success on the football pitch for many years, its people still dream anew every year that Mayo will bring Sam back to the county. In that regard, it is a great disappointment to them that the name of Mayo is not incorporated in the new Galway West constituency. They are very disappointed that the new constituency is not called Galway West-South Mayo. As it does not change the decisions of the commission in any way, since it is only a matter of naming constituencies, I will table an amendment in this regard on Committee Stage. I hope the Taoiseach, a proud Mayo man, the Minister of State, Deputy Ring, also a proud Mayo man, Deputy Michelle Mulherin, a proud Mayo woman, and Deputy O'Mahony, who despite having trained Galway to All-Ireland Championship success and living in County Roscommon played his football with Mayo and represents that county in the Dáil, will fully understand the sensitivities in ensuring that Mayo is part of the name of this constituency. It is important that people identify with their constituencies, particularly in rural areas where names mean a great deal. I hope such an amendment will secure all-party agreement. I am sure the four Mayo Deputies will support such an amendment and if we get the Taoiseach's and Minister of State's support, it will be passed by the House. I will be seeking their support. I hope this will be seen to be above politics and the right thing to do for County Mayo. I will table the amendment and hope for the support of the Government Deputies.

I will take this opportunity to discuss the political system. I do not go along with the idea that Deputies are under-worked, our constituencies are too small or that the number of Deputies should continue to be reduced. Sometimes people make fallacious comparisons. There are over 600 Members of the House of Commons representing approximately 60 million people in Britain. People say this indicates one representative for every 100,000 people. Therefore, MPs in Britain are representing many more people proportionately to us. They forget, of course, that we have a proportional representation, PR, system. Under that system Deputies in a five seat constituency are each representing all the approximately 110,000 people in that constituency. Since I became a Member of this House that figure has increased from approximately 20,000 per Deputy, which means 100,000 in a five seat constituency, to nearly 30,000, which means almost 150,000 in the constituency. Deputies, therefore, are now representing many more people. When one takes the PR element into account one finds that, comparatively, we represent the same number of people as other representatives in other jurisdictions.

The Dublin constituencies are very small geographically. The effect of this is that there are absolutely enormous western constituencies. If Mayo had remained a five seat constituency, which was possible, it would have had to acquire a major slice of either Counties Sligo, Roscommon or Galway. In the existing constituency, it takes two hours of hard driving to drive from Moyne Bridge outside Headford, County Galway, on the Mayo border across to Blacksod in County Mayo. I am sure Deputy Ring could tell many horror stories about trying to stay awake when driving, trying to put in the hours and trying to be in two places on the same day across an enormous territory.

People often criticise what they call clientelist politics. I believe the stability of our democracy is based on the fact that people know their public representatives and that the representative is not a distant person they do not know and just a name on a ballot paper. In most cases, particularly outside urban areas, the vast majority of people have met and know their Deputy. People have wondered why the Irish people just got on with facing the difficulties in the economy and did not get destructive about it. I believe that is due to the closeness of the political system to the people. Consider the history of this country before 1922. There was a cycle of violence and disconnection with those who ruled us. As a result, people thought the Irish were an innately violent people. However, when we secured our own Government and structures and public representation that is close to the people we became a people who bought into our democracy. The stability of our democracy in the 20th century is unparalleled. I believe that relates to two things - ownership of houses, which appears to be becoming an unpopular concept, and the closeness of the political system to the people. We should be slow, therefore, to move away from that connection.

I wish well all those who seek big constitutional change. However, they must never forget in the course of that debate that the people have twice in the past shown themselves to be slow to make changes in the system they like. Under our written Constitution, the people are the final arbiters. Politicians can propose but only the people, voting in a referendum, can dispose of any change. All those people with the big ideas should remember that they must take account of what the people in this country quite correctly want.

With regard to our work, it is time, on all sides of the House, that we stopped running down the job of Teachta Dála and that we explained to the public that if backbench Members carried out their constituency role and their legislative and representative roles in the House correctly, played a full part in committees, do everything else expected of public representatives such as attending public events and so on and took an interest in other issues outside their own narrow brief, their role would be important but it would take more than all the hours available in a day. The notion that people want better services with less resources in the context of staff and other supports to provide them is counterproductive and is not rational and, therefore, we must educate the public about all the roles we play. For example, the Minister of State has a great deal of experience of opposition and he will be well aware of the volume of work dealing with legislation, including doing the detailed homework needed to table effective amendments.

At the beginning of every session of this Dáil, statements are scheduled to fill the time and this has not changed under the new Government. I acknowledge there are forces outside the control of the Government, based on years of habit within the public service system, which result in most legislation being brought into the House during the final three weeks of each session. We must together develop a system that spreads legislation out more evenly and does away with the guillotine. Many times, difficulties have arisen with legislation that was passed in a hurry and not teased out properly in the House. We all have a role to play in this regard. As Opposition Members, we can make a big contribution at select committee meetings by going through every line of legislation while Government backbenchers could do more to tease out legislation as well. It is also important that co-operation is given by Ministers such as that I have received from my opposite number, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine while discussing the Animal Health and Welfare Bill 2012. He has been accommodating in allowing his officials to meet us on a continual basis to brief us and so on and he has accepted many amendments. Where he did not accept them, he brought forward his own, which reflected with the basic thesis behind ours. That is the way legislation should be processed and we should make it our earnest commitment that we will not, except in extreme emergencies, guillotine legislation and we will work through Committee and Report Stages. If a guillotine has to be used, it should apply to Second Stage and not on the stages that decide the wording of the law and the effect it will have on people to avoid unintended consequences.

Le críoch, cuirfidh mé síos leasú ag Céim an Choiste agus beidh mé ag brath ar an Aire Stáit le tacaíocht a thabhairt dó.