Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if he will report on his recent discussions with the public service unions regarding a successor to the Croke Park agreement. [2908/13]

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the degree to which he can, in the context of budgetary curtailments in the current year, rely on revised working hours as a possible alternative to salary or wage cuts in view of the fact that the public already have considerable commitments by way of financial outgoings; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3057/13]

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform aside from pay savings and increased working hours, the additional reforms he is seeking from discussions with union leaders on extending the Croke Park Agreement. [3081/13]

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if he is setting any non-negotiable conditions in respect of talks on a successor to the Croke Park agreement. [2803/13]

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the way it is intended to incorporate the citizen-user of public services as a represented party in the ongoing public service pay and performance negotiations to replace the Croke Park agreement; if he foresees any role for the citizen user of public services in these negotiations in terms of the overall reforms of the public service which are planned; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3052/13]

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the extent to which he sees the substitution of longer working hours for pay cuts as being more acceptable in some sectors in the public services in the context of meeting budgetary targets set in the Memorandum of Understanding; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3296/13]

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 6, 18, 25, 30, 32 and 103 together.

The Government has indicated that an additional saving of €1 billion in the pay and pensions bill will be necessary in the period until the end of 2015 and €300 million of this saving will be needed this year to meet our spending targets. This is to support our determination to restore order to the public finances and meet our fiscal targets.

Deputies will be aware that the Government extended an invitation to the members of the public services committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to enter discussions with public service management on a new agenda for reductions in the cost of delivering public services and substantial longer term productivity improvements and workplace reforms. A parallel process is also under way with the associations representing the Garda and Defence Forces.

Intensive engagement, facilitated by the Labour Relations Commission, has commenced between the parties to the discussions and will continue over the coming weeks. This process will allow for the impact of any changes on individual public servants and their workplace to be explored in order that public servants have the fullest information to help them decide in any ballot.

While this is a challenging and complex process, the Government wishes to reach an agreement that allows substantial costs to be extracted and enhances public service productivity to the benefit of all those who rely on public services. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, has indicated that he wants to achieve the necessary savings in a way that is broadly equitable and impacts most on those who are best able to afford it.

Any measures aimed at achieving overall savings of €1 billion will have to involve reductions in payroll costs for serving staff as well as significant productivity and workforce reform measures, in addition to those already achieved under the current Croke Park agreement. To ensure that savings can be found as early as possible in 2013 to meet expenditure commitments, management has indicated that these intensive discussions should conclude in a matter of weeks. The Minister has indicated a date of the end of February. The management negotiators will present a range of measures they believe can deliver the necessary savings.

It would not be helpful or appropriate to discuss the details of the various issues that are part of these discussions. They are subject to ongoing bilateral engagement between the parties in the correct forum and any comment at this time would not help and could impede the discussions. The Minister will brief the House in full on the outcome of any engagements. However, the Government will not offer any comment on the current negotiations until they are concluded in full.

It is worth emphasising that the current agreement remains in place while these discussions are under way and the reforms under the current framework are continuing. It is intended that any new agreement will build on the work done to date and use the same successful fast-track mechanisms to drive change and reforms forward.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, I am surprised that six related questions have been grouped together, as they will take the rest of this questions session, approximately 36 minutes. The rest of the session will be spent on one topic. I have tabled a number of questions that are next in the sequence. Other Deputies have also tabled questions, but none will be discussed in this session.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Let me interrupt-----

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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What is the procedure? Must we agree to the grouping of questions-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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No.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----or do we have a choice?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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It has been decided. No matter how many questions are asked, no more than 18 minutes can be spent on them.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Is that for all six?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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If a question is not asked, we will move on to the next one.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I will take the questions in the order in which they were tabled. Deputy McDonald is next, followed by Deputy Sean Fleming, as the other Deputies have not arrived yet.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I noticed that Deputy Higgins was not present. The Minister of State is not going to comment on what is on the table, as he believes that commentary would be unhelpful. However, the Government has already put down a couple of markers, some of which I rehearsed with the Minister of State, in terms of legislating if no agreement is forthcoming and regarding the crucial issue of graduate nurses and midwives.

From a briefing in Leinster House today, I understand that the nursing unions have made it clear that, unless this matter is resolved - by which they mean the HSE and the Government should set aside the yellow pack approach to graduate nurses and midwives - there will be a problem agreeing a new Croke Park deal. When the Minister of State gets to his feet, will he inform the House of whether this is the case? Is he aware that this matter has been placed front and centre in the negotiations? What are his comments in this regard?

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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On a programme on the national broadcaster on Saturday, I set out clearly that it was not helpful of me or any other Minister or Minister of State to make sidebar comments in this way when the person mandated to do the job was the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin. I feel strongly about this. The Government has mandated the Minister and his Department to run the talks and to report back to it on their success or otherwise. It does not help if I or anyone else stands in the way of those talks by making public comment.

We are very much involved in these intensive talks. There is a short timeframe for them. The Minister set it at a number of weeks to the end of February. Everyone who sat down on the first day of those talks is still there today. This is a constructive engagement on the part of public service unions. The Government is ambitious for the talks. We want them to succeed. We do not want to impose a unilateral arrangement if no agreement can be found. We believe that we can find agreement in circumstances in which the same public sector unions have been central to the radical reductions in numbers and total payroll costs during the past four years. They are up to the challenge and task that lie ahead.

This is not easy. It is difficult returning for a second and a third time to a group of people who have seen their core pay reduced. However, the Government has signed up to an agreement with our international funders and with the Irish people. The Government's mandate is to have a deficit of just under 3% by 2015. One cannot do this if one excludes 36% of all public expenditure. This is the context of the discussions.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is all well and good for the talks to be held behind closed doors, but what of the public interest? The taxpayer is paying. The Government is participating with its employer's hat on and the employees are represented by the trade unions, but no one in the talks represents the public interest and the taxpayer. For this reason, people need to be made aware.

According to the Minister of State, the Minister, Deputy Howlin, has been charged with dealing with these talks and sidebar discussions would be unhelpful. Will the Minister of State ask the Minister or the Taoiseach to tell that to the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, who made comments in the Sunday newspapers about nursing numbers, which comprise part of this issue, and the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, who dealt with Croke Park II negotiations in another article? The Minister of State is not averse to commenting on these issues on occasion, although perhaps he has not done so recently. Through media statements, senior Ministers have flatly contradicted what the Minister of State referred to as the Government instruction on there being no sidebar comments.

Are there non-negotiable or red line issues? If €1 billion is not achieved in the talks, will the Government accept the deal? Is the figure of €1 billion an opening shot and will the Government settle for €450 million, €550 million or €650 million? Is the €1 billion a red line issue?

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I apologise, as I did not answer this question when the Deputy asked it previously. The €1 billion is €1 billion.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The red line.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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That is what we are seeking to resolve. Some figures have been bandied about elsewhere, for example, €800 million, but let me be clear - the figure is €1 billion.

Everyone is represented at the talks.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The taxpayer is represented by the Government, but also by the public sector unions. Some €2.5 billion has been removed from public sector pay and pensions in circumstances of industrial peace. I am not implying that the Deputy opposite is involved, but those Deputies who suggest something other than this approach should state what their approach is. Days and weeks have been lost in other European countries that have needed to undergo such a transformation, schools and hospitals have been closed and inevitable public conflict has followed some kind of confrontation. We are trying to operate by agreement. It is to the credit of the public sector unions and the leadership they have shown that we have got this far in terms of a peaceful industrial environment.

It is a question of the future sustainability of public sector pay and pensions. Our country will not have a sustainable financial base until we reduce expenditure. If public servants and the public sector are to have a sustainable future, we must address this issue in terms of the €1 billion in savings.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am struggling with the contradiction in the Minister of State's comments. I am sorry that, sadly, I did not hear him on the national broadcaster on Saturday.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy did not miss much.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State is laying all of his emphasis on the new Croke Park agreement by agreement, but he is ignoring entirely the matter that I raised. The HSE and the Government acted unilaterally to deliver a pay cut to nurses and midwives. In Leinster House and elsewhere, the unions have stated that this matter is on the table in the negotiations. If it is not resolved and if the unilateral action is not rolled back, reaching any agreement will be difficult.

I do not know how involved the Minister of State is in the detail of the talks, but I imagine he would know. At least, I hope he would. Will he confirm for the House whether the Government understands the importance of this issue? People in the public sector and beyond see that unilateral action has been taken against graduate nurses and midwives. If it is against them today, who might it be against tomorrow?

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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It is no one's right, be it the Government or public sector unions, to lay down such preconditions in the context of discussions around a table. I am taking the Deputy's word, as I did not attend the discussion today that she mentioned. I am not sure whether it was a public or private engagement or whether just the Deputy was briefed. We will wait to see what others have to say. In the first instance, if anyone knows anything about talks with preconditions, I suspect it is Deputy McDonald's party, given the length of time it took to reach an agreement in Northern Ireland.

This is an open engagement. We are ambitious for these talks, as the country must find savings. If other parties to the talks are setting down such conditions, I have not heard of them thus far. Where other professions, for example, teaching, have seen new recruitment streams to deal with the financial crisis and to give people experience and the opportunity to work in this country, we must show such flexibility across the public service.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Run down the wages across the service.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The great prize from these talks is ultimately the creation of a sustainable public sector in the future which can fund itself as a result of the taxation we bring in.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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But we cannot go near the ones at the top. Is that not correct?

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy knows as well as I do-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I know full well.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy knows as well as I do that the people at the top of the public sector, the crowd she would like to put against the wall, are those who have suffered the biggest cuts as a result of the decisions taken. That will continue. I am not sure whether Deputy McDonald deliberately ignored what I said earlier-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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No nurse is on €100,000.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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-----or if she chose to put it to one side, but that will continue. It is a fundamental part of these talks that there will be an equality of contribution in terms of potential reductions to pay and pensions. That has been the case with this Government and it will continue in the talks and into the future.