Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if officials from his Department will engage directly with front line public service staff, un-mediated by union officials, to identify opportunities for improved service quality and increased efficiency as part of negotiations for the Public Service Agreement that will proceed the Croke Park deal; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3407/13]

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Given the financial and human resource constraints under which the public service has operated for some years and will continue to operate in future, all opportunities for the identification of improved service quality and increased efficiency measures in the provision of public services are welcome. My officials are happy to engage with staff with or without the benefit of union representation to identify further savings and productivity opportunities. Given that staff engaged in the delivery of public services have a unique insight in to the cost base of those services, I welcome any proposals that could reduce the cost base in the delivery of front-line services in the public service.

Discussions are under way between public service employers and the public services committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions which, through their membership of trade unions and associations, public servants have nominated to represent them. The Government’s stated intention is to reach agreement on securing overall savings of an additional €1 billion from the public service pay bill by 2015. This will involve reductions in payroll costs for serving staff as well as significant productivity and workforce reform measures in addition to those already achieved under the current Croke Park agreement. All proposals for cost savings will be considered in the context of the contribution they can make to the targeted saving of €1 billion.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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I am pleased to note the Department is open to engaging with front-line officials. Having been involved in reform for some time, the Minister of State will be aware that the Croke Park agreement, while offering some limited value, is an old-fashioned, centralist and top-down approach to public sector reform. International best practice in the public and private sectors is to engage directly with employees. While a small number of measures can be taken at a high level, for example, one can agree changes in rosters and so forth, the vast majority of savings are identified on the shop floor. In cases where we used lean process design for operating theatres, it was shown that substantial savings were possible. However, the only people who can identify and implement such savings are porters, nurses, surgeons and so forth. The same applies in accident and emergency departments in respect of triage procedures.

During a recent appearance on "The Frontline", I argued that engagement with public sector workers was a key element missing from the current approach. After the programme, I was inundated with e-mails and approached by audience members who thanked me for raising the issue and pointed out that I was the first person to say they should be contacted directly. They provided examples of changes in their workplaces that could generates savings of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of euro. I was informed, however, that efforts to implement these changes in response to the crisis were blocked by a union control mentality which insists that change must come through the unions. I hope the current culture in which change and improvement are viewed as things to be stopped and then negotiated with the Government is coming to an end.

I would like the Minister of State, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, and their officials to move beyond agreeing to be open to ideas from employees and instead consider adopting a planned, systemic approach in parallel with the ongoing top level approach that is being taken under the Croke Park agreement. They need to engage with employees all over the country.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should appear on "The Frontline" programme more often. I ask him to send me the proposals he has received. Alternatively, we could meet him and go through the proposals one by one and line by line to ascertain how useful they are. That would be a worthwhile engagement.

We are already doing as the Deputy asks, for example, in the area of shared services for human resource functions. Each of the 15 Departments currently has its own human resources personnel. By bringing together in one shared service platform all departmental human resources functions, from banking to payroll, we will achieve savings in personnel of 26% and cash savings of 17%. Much of this engagement is taking place internally as opposed to being outsourced to an agency.

We spoke about procurement in response to Deputy Pringle's earlier question. The administration costs of a centralised procurement framework are €28,000, whereas each local authority would have to spend €6,500 on administration if procurement was done locally. This is another saving we can achieve by having our staff use their time better, acquire more expertise and identify what they want to achieve. I would like to receive details of the ideas the Deputy has received.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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The Minister of State and I appear to be discussing two slightly different issues. The shared services idea forms part of a centralised design approach. While I support this approach on the basis that it can deliver benefits, it does not involve asking front-line workers in Garda stations, schools, operating theatres and so forth to identify opportunities for achieving savings. An entirely new approach is required on this issue. I would be pleased to meet the Minister of State to discuss my experiences and outline what is being done elsewhere in the world. We need to have two processes running in parallel. In addition to the good measures the Government is taking, we require a new approach that involves approaching each worker directly.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I do not disagree. One of the questions that is central to the current talks is how we will change the workforce and do things in a radically different way. This requires redeployment and a whole-of-government approach. We need to examine the performance management and development system, PMDS, to determine who is marking it and whether there is real engagement with the process and to ensure people are accountable.

Managers in the public sector are paid very well vis-à-vis public service managers in other similar sized countries. They must manage and be held accountable for their management but we cannot have some centralist, Stalinist approach to management. How we move forward on this issue will be central to the discussions with the public sector unions. Local managers are paid very well and must manage their budgets and engage with people on the ground to ensure we achieve efficiencies and changing work practices. I strongly agree with the Deputy that a centralised approach leads to inefficiency.