Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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To ask the Minister for Education and Skills the discussions he has had with bodies representing second level teachers in relation to the implementation of the new junior certificate cycle; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [51315/12]

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The new framework for junior cycle is based on advice given to me by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA. Teacher organisations are represented on both the NCCA council and the NCCA's junior cycle review committee. In addition, I have established a group of education partners to discuss and support implementation of the new junior cycle. Bodies representing second level teachers are members of this group. It is intended that the group will continue to meet regularly over the eight-year phasing in period of the revised junior cycle.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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We have covered the issue in previous questions. It is disappointing there was not more engagement with the teaching unions in advance of the announcement, which would have facilitated progress in junior cycle reform and engagement following the announcement. I take on board the fact that people from a second level teaching background were on the NCCA.

Nevertheless, the Minister should have engaged more with teachers given that they will be required to implement the reform.

After the Minister's announcement, the president of the Association of Secondary Teachers of Ireland, Mr. Gerry Breslin, stated the following:

Key components of the Minister’s reform plans were unknown to teachers until two weeks ago. Teachers learned about major reforms, which will impact significantly on them and their students, via the media. There is a lot of anger in schools that the views and experiences of teachers were not sought before these reforms were announced.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Let us be clear about this issue. Every organisation across the education spectrum welcomed the proposed changes in the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA. The objection raised by teachers was not to the content of the new curriculum but to the decision by me to stand down a State examination, the junior certificate examination, because I no longer considered it relevant. I made this decision because in the past we had been unable to get curriculum reforms into the classroom owing to opposition from various sectors. Both teacher unions stated specifically, with good reason and with an historical background to explain their position, that teachers would not examine their pupils on behalf of the State for a State examination. I listened carefully to their views and pondered the issue for some time. Given that Finland, Scotland and New Zealand do not have high stakes state examinations other than at the end of the six-year, second level period, I asked what purpose the junior certificate State examination was serving in this day and age. Notwithstanding that none of us wants our children to leave school at the age of 15 years, they continue to sit a State examination at that age.

I listened to the views of the two teacher unions, neither of which had an argument with the curriculum content. They argued that teachers should not examine their own pupils in the new course curriculum to which we provided a straightforward reflected response in deciding there would no longer be a State examination in the junior cycle. The only change is that teachers would be asked to do in third year what they currently do in second and fifth year of the secondary school system. The teaching unions were not consulted in advance of the announcement because they had made clear that they were not prepared to do as I have described. However, in respect of everything else they were fully engaged with the process and their representatives continue to meet my officials. I met Mr. Gerry Breslin at a function and have since received a request for a formal meeting. A preliminary meeting with the two second level teacher unions will take place soon and I expect and intend to meet them again subsequently.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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The concerns of teachers were wider than presented by the Minister. They were concerned that the announcement was not accompanied by a plan setting out how teachers would be supported in bringing about the significant changes that will be needed as part of junior certificate reform. While there is no doubt about the potential to improve the curriculum, teachers must be a core part of any such change. They believe the proposals were landed on them without sufficient engagement on how the reforms would be introduced and what supports would be provided to them. Naturally, they are also concerned that they will be asked to make these changes without sufficient supports and resources being made available to enable them to do so. The Minister must hold formal meetings with representatives of second level teachers as soon as possible to resolve the outstanding issues.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I intend to do so.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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It is accepted by those employed in the education sector that rote learning should be discouraged. For this reason, I welcome the move away from high-stakes State examinations at primary and junior certificate levels. However, the proposed changes must the first element of a broader reform of education. I ask the Minister whether he has considered further reform given that the cohort of students who will benefit from the revised junior certificate under whatever title it will be given will still face a high-stakes State examination by rote learning when they sit the leaving certificate. The current reform should be the first of two elements of a reform package. Will the Minister consider this matter in the overall scheme? Students, like all of us, may have a bad day and the most important examination in their life - the leaving certificate which will determine where they will go - should not be entirely based on rote learning, as is currently the case.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I agree with Deputy O'Donovan. One of the reasons we are reforming the junior cycle is the difficulty with rote learning and how all of the pressure is placed on a single day. However, some of the arguments for this are undermined if we do not also consider the leaving certificate.

Thursday's debate will be welcome, as there is some confusion among parents. They are concerned about what the reforms will mean for their children. As I told the Minister, my daughter is in fifth class and will be one of the first to sit the new revised English curriculum. From speaking with other parents, there is some confusion. Thursday's debate can be the start of the process of reassuring parents.

The Minister's statement today to the effect that he will sit down with the teaching unions is an important step. This initiative has the potential to be very reforming. We welcome the move away from a rote system of learning. The proposed system will have many benefits, but we must get it right and instil confidence as we move along.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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If I may, I will address Deputy O'Donovan's comments first. In September 2011, a conference - its website was www.transitions.ie - examined the bridge between second and third levels. Three weaknesses were found. Two were on our side of the equation, as it were, and one was on the universities' side, namely, the 300% increase in offers for courses. Compared with ten years ago, the choices offered by a current CAO form have exploded. This is confusing for a 17 year old or 18 year old. Only 15% of such young people have a clear idea of what they want to do. It is an Aladdin's cave.

Subsequently, the universities undertook to consider simplifying or altering the process. This undertaking has been led by Professor Philip Nolan, president of the National University of Ireland, Maynooth. He hopes to report to me by the end of this calendar year.

On our side of the equation, the State Examinations Commission, SEC, is responsible for the formulation of exams, the questions and the marking system, which was held up as being rigid. Of the 14 different grades, at no stage in any answer is a pupil more than 2.5 points away from the grade above or below. If one mentions the right type of words in one's reply, one has ticked the box. It has come down to this level of artificial precision.

Another issue is the predictability of questions. Some teachers should work for Paddy Power. Using the pattern of past questions, they know that Heaney and Muldoon will come up and that the other eight poets on the list can be forgotten about.

With the universities, we have undertaken to do our part. We will remove the predictability. The matter is still under discussion and the Houses' committee may wish to debate it. I can arrange for someone to discuss it with Deputy O'Donovan. We will reduce the marking grade system from a grade ladder of 14 levels to perhaps seven and see how it works.

Regarding our engagement with teachers, they are a critical part of the education system, but they are not the total and exclusive group involved. Principals and deputy principals have a key role to play, as have the boards of management and the management bodies in terms of organisation and delivery. Parents are also involved at primary and post-primary levels. There must be a dialogue with all of the interested stakeholders.

We are moving cautiously and slowly to ensure that we get it right and in place in time. Some of the Deputies present are primary school teachers and know that it took approximately 20 years to change the old national school primary certificate examination. Most people, including foreigners in this country, accept that we have a top class curriculum for primary school children. They learn by discovery, as Deputy O'Brien knows from his fifth class daughter. Children cry about school these days, but only when they cannot go to school, not when they must go. This is a testimony to the curriculum compared with the old situation. We want to transfer, in so far as we can, the positive elements of this discovery away from rote learning and into the classroom.