Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Office of the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this issue and thank the Minister for his attendance in the Chamber. While this issue may be a little more parochial than the previous matter, perhaps Deputy McCarthy will have an interest in it nonetheless. The imminent closure proposed by the Courts Service of the courthouses in Kinsale, Skibbereen and Clonakilty is causing some concern in west Cork. It represents a further continuation of the contraction of the Courts Service's operations in west Cork in recent years. It has already closed six District Court venues in Castletownbere, Schull, Glengarriff, Dunmanway, Millstreet and Coachford and this reduction in the number of court venues from 12 to six already has created serious difficulties for all court users. Obviously, reducing this number further by another three to three venues will cause even greater difficulties.

I am aware that late last year, the Minister and the Chief Justice established a working group on efficiency measures in the criminal court system in the Circuit and District Courts and I have had sight of the Courts Service's strategic plan for 2011 to 2014, Delivering Service, Transformation and Value. I recognise and welcome that like all State agencies, the Courts Service is in a period of change and reform. However, the issue also should be examined a little more closely because the cost savings that are being considered or which are to be achieved may not add up when one takes into account the entire picture. For example, were all the gardaí stationed in a town in west Cork obliged to travel to Cork city for hearings, it could leave an entire district without cover for six, eight and possibly even more hours during the day. I also am aware the State solicitor for west Cork has already indicated that he is encountering difficulties in getting gardaí to be available for attendance at Circuit Court hearings in Cork. In one recent case, he was informed by the superintendent that he could have two gardaí in one case and three of the gardaí on the following day. Moreover, in family cases, one could have all the litigants or concerned witnesses travelling together for up to 80 miles on one bus. Regrettably, we do not have regular scheduled public transport and this is possible. I do not believe the Minister is of the opinion this situation would be desirable.

Other hidden costs also might be considered, including Garda overtime, mileage allowances, etc. In addition, would cases be dismissed were gardaí unable to attend? I refer to another issue the Minister might take into account that is completely out of left-field. In Skibbereen, for example, if a traffic warden was obliged to attend a court day in Cork, that conceivably could lose €400 to the town council in Skibbereen. While this may be a minor issue, it nevertheless is a hidden cost.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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But everyone would be able to park happily.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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It is very easy to collect the aforementioned €400 in Skibbereen. Other consequences may be a little more serious. Obviously, the District Court is a court that affects most ordinary people more often. The current cost of holding District Court sittings in Kinsale, Clonakilty or Skibbereen is approximately the same, that is, €9,500 or €10,000 per annum. I also should mention increased costs to other State bodies, were the court venues to close in west Cork and to be relocated to Cork city.

One issue that is causing considerable concern to the communities involved is the security exposure in respect of the gardaí being obliged to travel, en masse in many cases, from more remote parts of west Cork to attend court proceedings in Cork city. I believe this would be a serious issue for security in the more rural villages. Allied to this, west Cork has experienced Garda closures over the past 12 months and more may be envisaged - I do not know what will emerge. I take the point the Minister always makes that, ultimately, it is gardaí who will prevent crime and while stations will accommodate, it is the availability of the gardaí that is most important. I understand these proposals are coming from the Courts Service. I believe the closures that are being proposed may be imminent and I believe time to be important in this regard. However, I sincerely ask that the Minister would consider both the spreadsheet cost of the rationalisation and the greater picture, including costs within his own Department from the Garda Commissioner's office and possible security implications from the Garda Commissioner's office to ascertain whether there is an opinion in that regard. Obviously, the general community effect for a small town of losing even a monthly sitting of a District Court is negative and perhaps also has an effect on the social, community and business life of a town. The Minister should consider these points in the context of the proposals from the Courts Service

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. As the Deputy will be aware, under the provisions of the Courts Service Act 1998, management of courts is the responsibility of the service and as Minister, I have no role in the matter. Section 4(3) of the 1998 Act provides that the Courts Service is independent in the performance of its functions, which, of course, include the provision, maintenance and management of court buildings. However, I have made inquiries with the Courts Service and am informed that in the current financial climate, the service has been reviewing all aspects of its organisational and operational structures throughout the country with the specific objective of ensuring the service can continue to maintain the delivery of front-line court services and an appropriate level of service to court users. I understand that no court venue has been singled out or indeed exempted from the review process.

A comprehensive review of venues has recently been completed, the purpose of which was to establish a general framework within which venues could be considered for closure, taking into account a range of criteria such as case loads, proximity to an alternative venue, physical condition of the building, availability of holding cell facilities and so on. The likely impact on other justice agencies, such as An Garda Síochána and the Irish Prison Service, is also taken into account. I am informed the review identified a range of venues nationwide which, based on the criteria applied, could be considered for closure subject - I emphasise this - to a detailed assessment and the preparation of a business case in respect of each identified venue, which has now commenced.

The service has advised that the identification of venues as part of the review process does not conclusively mean that the identified venues will close. I am informed no decision will be taken on an individual venue without prior consultation with local stakeholders and I understand this consultation will be undertaken at an early stage in the assessment process in order that all views can be fully reflected in the decision-making process. It should be noted that the final decision will be a matter for the Courts Service board. Under the statute, I have no role or function in the matter.

As for the particular venues mentioned by the Deputy, I have been informed by the service that no sittings have been held in Kinsale since 1 October 2010, due to the condition of the courtroom and Kinsale District Court currently sits in Bandon.

With regard to Skibbereen and Clonakilty, I am advised that the standard of the facilities, numbers of sittings and caseloads require examination. The Deputy will appreciate that the retention of venues not in use, not of reasonable standard or which are rarely used must be fully reviewed with necessary decisions taken. It is worth noting that since its foundation, the service has made great progress in improving the stock of courthouses throughout the country. Many of our county town courthouses have been refurbished and other major upgrading works have been completed in places such as Cork, Limerick, Dundalk and Castlebar.

Since its establishment the Courts Service has amalgamated more than 150 venues while at the same time the service has benefitted from a very substantial capital investment to upgrade larger courthouses, concentrating mainly on county towns. The policy has been very successful, resulting in a more efficient use of time for the Judiciary, court users and An Garda Síochána. Rather than short sittings in the smaller venues, a full day's list can be dealt with which leads to reductions in delays in the District Court.

I thank the Deputy for raising the matter and I appreciate his interest in the administration of justice in County Cork, as well as his concerns about his constituency and those who utilise existing court facilities. I know the Deputy will understand the need for the Courts Service to take the measures necessary to promote greater efficiency in the courts, and I hope the constructive engagement involving the Courts Service will result in reasoned and appropriate decisions being made on the venues.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his response. I am particularly pleased that decisions will be taken after a consultation process with stakeholders. I would be the first to say if it does not pay to have a venue, it should be shut down. That is the reality of the world in which we live. I was aware the decision would be taken by the Courts Service but it was only fair to give the issue an airing in this forum because of the possible consequences with regard to justice, gardaí, businesses and the community. I hope these elements will be considered as well as being part of the stakeholder process. Due weight should be given to the cost in pounds, shilling and pence along with secondary or associated costs.

I take the point with regard to having full days in the venues and making the best possible use of private legal firms, the Chief State Solicitor's office and public money in the use of gardaí, expenses for witnesses and so on. There are also social concerns, with witnesses and people involved in court matters travelling together. As I stated, that is not desirable. I brought the issue to this forum because there is a minor or even more significant impact on different aspects of life in west Cork. I am grateful for the Minister's response.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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All the issues mentioned by the Deputy were raised by me some time ago in an official meeting with representatives of the Courts Service. It operates independently and makes independent decisions, but I am entitled to meet its representatives. It is not for me as the Minister to determine which courthouses should remain open, but those decisions will be made. I have emphasised that it is terribly important that in making these assessments, the totality of the cost implications would be taken into account. The issue could not be viewed simply from the perspective of the Courts Service budget or Estimate.

It is vital there is joined up thinking and synergy in what is going on, especially when dealing with stakeholders. The Courts Service must engage with An Garda Síochána if, for example, there is a proposal to close a particular courthouse. The impact on manpower and availability of gardaí in a local community when a court might be sitting elsewhere must be considered, along with costing of Garda time if personnel attend at one location rather than another. There are other consequent issues that may arise.

An unseen piece of the jigsaw is the cost in court staff in locations that are open very rarely. One must consider the travel time involved, the moving of files and documentation and the efficiencies with which the Judiciary could administer justice in a court that might only have a limited number of hearings, as opposed to a court where there are a larger number of cases. The public may be better served and issues awaiting attention in the courts would be dealt with more efficiently and quickly.

Many people seek remedies in small and occasional District Court sittings, and if those people were told they could travel ten or 15 miles but that the case would be dealt with three months sooner, they would welcome it. Those at the receiving end of a criminal prosecution may want to kick the can up the road in that respect. A civil application to recover a small debt or a family law application in the District Court - for example, a dependent wife and child awaiting a maintenance order - could be dealt with more quickly if a couple of court locations were amalgamated. Instead of waiting three or four months for a hearing, the people in question would only have to wait four or five weeks, and most people would go for that option.

There is also the issue of cost in the context of the legal profession. As a member of that profession, I know that with some of the smaller courts there can be a reasonable assurance that practitioners are equally likely to be attending courts in other locations in Cork, for example, to represent clients. They would not be unduly burdened by having to move to a different District Court location.

As I understand it from the Courts Service, these locations are being reviewed, and it is not a given that from those reviews the courts under examination will close. It is important that this be considered in a comprehensive way. There is, nevertheless, an inevitability that there will be further closures to bring about consolidation and to use public resources more effectively. We must also bring efficiencies to the manner in which the courts operate.