Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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To ask the Minister for Social Protection when she will publish her Advisory Group on Tax and Social Welfare's report on child income supports; if her attention has been drawn to the fact that the proposal which was reported in the media has caused fears amongst families and risks further damaging consumer sentiment; her views on the recommendation that child benefit be cut by €40; her plans with regard to the payment; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [44635/12]

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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To ask the Minister for Social Protection her views on the expert group advice on the future of the disability allowance for persons aged 16 to 18 years; her future plans for the disability allowance payment for persons aged 16 to 18 years; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [44638/12]

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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To ask the Minister for Social Protection when she expects to publish her Advisory Group on Tax and Social Welfare's report on her proposal to axe disability allowance for persons aged 16 and 17 years; if she will outline the scale of the financial loss to households with a young person with disabilities arising from such a cut; her plans with regard to the payment; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [44636/12]

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 53, 55 and 56together.

Creating jobs and tackling poverty are two of the key challenges that Ireland faces and it is essential our tax and social protection systems play their part in addressing these issues. To this end, and in line with commitments contained in the programme for Government, I established last year the advisory group on tax and social welfare, with the aim of harnessing expert opinion and experience to examine a number of specific issues and make cost-effective proposals for improving employment incentives and achieving better poverty outcomes, particularly child poverty outcomes. Total social welfare expenditure on children is some €3 billion this year.

The group’s overall method of working is based on producing modular reports on the priority areas identified in the terms of reference. The group commenced its work programme by prioritising the area of family and child income supports. I am currently considering the findings of the group’s report on this issue and I intend to publish this report in due course. The report is therefore not yet in the public domain and I do not propose to comment on it at this time. With regard to the budgetary proposals relating to disability allowance and domiciliary care allowance, I understand the group’s report on this issue is being finalised and therefore has not yet been submitted to me.

I am conscious that the budget 2012 measures concerning disability allowance and domiciliary care allowance gave rise to concerns about the impact on families of people with disabilities, most notably in the case of families of children and young adults with profound disabilities. When the group reverts to me, I and my Government colleagues will reflect carefully on its report.

Finally, it should be noted that the previous Government, in its budget for 2009, announced that the qualifying age for receipt of the disability allowance should be raised to 18 years of age and that domiciliary care allowance would continue to be paid from the age of 16 to 18 years in its place. While this decision was deferred, the Department of Social Protection value for money review of the disability allowance scheme, published in 2010, found that the case for increasing the minimum age for disability allowance from 16 to 18 years was compelling. In this regard, it was determined that the payment of disability allowance to 16 year olds may also give rise to issues within families as to the control and use of the payment. The view expressed in much commentary and numerous reports on this is that when a child is 16 years old it would be better if the payment went to the child's parent. The view is that it is appropriate and proper that income in respect of a child goes to the parent rather than the child getting a social welfare payment at 16 years old.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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How much time do we have?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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There is a total of 18 minutes for the three questions.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will deal first with my question about child benefit. I realise the Minister cannot say specifically what will happen in the budget but there have been a number of proposals, one of which is that child benefit be cut by €40 and that a separate top-up system be put in place. Is the Minister seriously considering a two rate child benefit system, to include a top-up system? Does she agree that a family with two children would lose almost €1,000 per year - the exact figure is €960 - if the proposed cut of €40 is implemented? This would be a substantial amount for any family but for many families the removal of that amount could be a tipping point. Is the Minister aware that her Department's value for money review of child benefit, published in 2010, demonstrated the dependence of middle income families on child benefit? Its analysis found that households in the fourth and fifth of the ten income brackets fell below or on the poverty line after paying their taxes and that in many cases child benefit lifted them above that line. Many of those households would be affected by any change in child benefit if the Minister opted to move away from universality.

The Minister said she will publish the reports after considering them. Will that be before the budget changes or afterwards? That is a key question for Members on all sides of the House, so that when decisions are made in the budget they will have some idea where they originated and whether the reports are based on the facts of day-to-day living. I refer to the report of the advisory group on tax and social welfare and the report relating to the changes the Minister had intended to introduce to the disability allowance in last year's budget and on which she rowed back after the outcry from the people affected, particularly the parents.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The total spend on child benefit in 2012 is estimated at €2.078 billion. It is €199 million on family income supplement. The payment of qualified child increases of nearly €30 per week, which go to families on social welfare, account for a further €698 million, and the back to school clothing and footwear allowance accounts for another €64 million.

That brings the total spend on child-related benefits to just over €3.04 billion. In the context of a social welfare budget of €20.5 billion, it is a significant amount and that is appreciated by families in Ireland, particularly mothers. I am on the record many times saying that I value the universal payment because it is paid to the caring parent and directly in cash rather than, as happens in other countries, through the tax system or through tax credits. Given the amount we spend on this and other social welfare payments, the question arises of finding a way to target some of this money in a better way for families who are poor, in work or out of work and on social welfare benefits. Is it possible in the context of that €3 billion expenditure to produce better child poverty outcomes?

The Deputy asked about the advisory group. I have received its report and it is being examined in detail, particularly the issues the Deputy raised such as middle income families because our tax system does not have a direct tax allowance for dependent children. Child benefit is the direct support the State pays to the family. I must bring the report to Cabinet and I have taken the opportunity in the context of other issues related to children, particularly those experiencing poverty, to discuss it with the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs. The report has not been brought to Government yet but once it goes to Government, we will be in a position to publish it. We want to have a close look at how children who are in families who are out of work or in work on low incomes, are impacted by the suggestions in the report.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has made a couple of extraordinary statements since the start of Question Time. I am overwhelmed by her boasting about last year's budget when, according to Social Justice Ireland, an organisation with no axe to grind, it was the most socially regressive budget in the last ten years. The Minister said her Department had not been flying kites but there are so many kites coming out of the Department of Social Protection it will need an air traffic control system.

Wherever this proposal came from, or whatever Government supported it, it was proposed last year by the Minister for Finance in the budget. There were two parts to it. First, the domiciliary care allowance for 16 to 18 year olds was to go to the parents instead and, second, the amount was to be cut. I had no problem with the first measure, I could see the reasoning behind the argument that the money should go to the parents, particularly in cases like this.

The second measure, the proposal to cut the amount, however, generated the controversy. The Government withdrew that proposal in the teeth of public opinion.

In withdrawing the proposal the Taoiseach said, this is a case in which the Government has listened. He also said that the Government did not get it right. Now the kite is being flown again, even though the Taoiseach said last year that it was wrong. If it was wrong last year, how is it right this year? Will the Minister give an assurance that she will not proceed with the proposal in her budgetary provisions?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I should tell the House what Social Justice Ireland and other commentators have found in respect of poverty and the social and negative impact of budgets for families on the lower levels of income, whether in work or on social welfare. The biggest reductions with which the Deputy will be familiar, having sat at the Cabinet table when many of these reductions were decided, was the cut of around €16.30 per week in basic core social welfare payments, except for pensioners-----

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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We also presided over increases.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----and the significant cuts over which the Government of which he was a member presided in respect of child benefit. When his Government proposed that the early childhood allowance would be converted to a preschool payment I supported that proposal at the time because I considered that we need to concentrate on the delivery of services, and the development of preschool education is important. The Deputy should concentrate less on the flights of rhetoric and a trawl around books we have all studied at school and more on the reality. The fact is that the Government of which the Deputy was a member crashed the country's economy. Nobody wants to cut or reduce a single social welfare payment for anybody because we all recognise how important such payments are to individuals; we know that from our personal lives and from our political work. We have to sort out what was left to us to sort out and we have to make the country capable of being self-sustaining on a financial basis. I welcome the Deputy saying publicly on behalf of Fianna Fáil that he agrees that children of 16 years of age should have payments paid to their parents who care for them. I welcome it because the previous Government recommended exactly that and also that the domiciliary care allowance would continue to be paid up to the age of 18 years. That is what the previous Government and various reports recommended. The Deputy is entitled to forget history entirely.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Just like the Minister has forgotten her promises.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy should take some responsibility for his Government's history in respect of these matters. When I was in opposition-----

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister was reprehensible in her approach in that she supported nothing.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----I supported a number of the initiatives taken.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister supported more expenditure and less tax.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister to conclude.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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If the Deputy wants to say something, will he please stand up and say it and I will listen to what he has to say.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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When the Minister was in opposition the whole approach of the Labour Party was to seek less tax and more expenditure.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is not true.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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We are moving away from this question, I want to call Deputy Ó Snodaigh's question.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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As a matter of history, what I recommended was that the very large tax allowances which rich people got to spend on property would be reduced and eliminated and that the money thereby saved would go to improve and expand services. If the Deputy wishes to examine the record he will find that is what I said. I supported initiatives such as the early childhood education initiative because I thought emphasising the development of a preschool service was a good way to go.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is in Government.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy appears to be threatened - but not when in government - by matters being examined and reviewed by groups who bring forward proposals and make suggestions.

There is nothing threatening in that, but the Government then makes the decisions in the best interest of all the people. We have much to learn about how to spend the money better and direct it for better outcomes for children.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Government also leaks the reports.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to return to the issue of child benefit. Is the Minister aware of the Central Statistics Office survey on income and living conditions which also demonstrates that the income of families fell five times more than the incomes of childless households between 2009 and 2010? It is not always the Minister's fault and we accept that. She inherited chaos but she has added to it. We also accept there is significant spend on child benefit and the other projects she mentioned - family income supplement, qualified child allowance and back to education allowance. Over the years they have prevented greater levels of food poverty and child poverty. It has been reported today that families on low incomes with three or more children are facing food poverty before any changes are made to child benefit.

The other issue grouped in these questions is the issue of access to disability allowance for 16 and 17 year olds. Does the Minister accept that if the proposal made last year to raise the age of disability allowance from 16 to 18 proceeded, the households of young people with disabilities would in fact be cut down as much as €6,000 a year because the domiciliary care allowance is substantially lower than the disability allowance? If the Minister were to follow through on her logic and consider taking disability allowance from those who are 16 and 17, we would introduce a different rate of domiciliary care allowance for those and that would be granted. Is that under serious consideration? Is domiciliary care allowance equal to that of the disability allowance for 16 and 17 year olds? If not then it is a cost-saving measure rather than a concern for children with disabilities having too much money to spend. It is not true that the disability allowance received by 16 and 17 year olds was all spent on enjoyment or misspent. In the majority of cases it is spent on their education and helping their parents ensure they stay in education rather than spent on social life as has been portrayed.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I have never suggested, as the Deputy has just said, that it was spent on people's social lives. I am not aware of that. If the Deputy has some indications in that regard, he might tell us about it, but I have never suggested that. From speaking to parents in receipt of domiciliary care allowance I know-----

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking about the suggestion of the Minister, Deputy Noonan.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----that money is used very carefully and very well for the children. A child of 16 moves on to a full social welfare payment exclusively in his or her own right. A child of 16 is a child. The suggestion is that the income received in respect of 16 or 17 year old children should be paid to their parents because they are living in a family context and that would be better in terms of the family and the child. I have no doubt that if that happens, those parents - we all know how heroic many parents are in the care they give their children - would continue to look after their child with loving care as has always been the case. I do not have any knowledge of the suggestion the Deputy has made.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do not either.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The advisory group was requested, following announcement of the budget, to look at this on foot of representations made particularly by parents of profoundly disabled children, for whom the job of caring in the home is onerous work for parents. While I have read information on this in the newspapers, I have not received any report from the advisory group.

The advisory group comprises distinguished people involved in issues around poverty, social welfare and disability and of representatives of a number of Departments, including the Departments of Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform and Children and Youth Affairs, and the Revenue Commissioners. It seeks to avail of the best of current information on best practices in respect of children and supporting children and their families.

As I said, I have not received any report, although I have read what has been printed about this in the newspapers. When I receive the report, I will look at it carefully, following which I will bring it to Cabinet. However, I must point out that it will be only an advisory report and that, at the end of the day, it is the Government who, in the context of the budget, will decide.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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May I ask a brief question?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry. We are way over time and must move on to Question No. 54 in the name of Deputy Halligan.