Dáil debates

Wednesday, 3 October 2012

2:10 pm

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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To ask the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht if he has met with representatives of the save Moore Street campaign to hear their concerns regarding the need to preserve the site; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [41786/12]

Photo of Dara CallearyDara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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To ask the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht when he expects to make a decision on allowing a new development near the Moore Street national monument, Dublin; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [41781/12]

Photo of Jimmy DeenihanJimmy Deenihan (Kerry North-West Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 10 and 15 together.

Nos. 14 to 17 Moore Street are the subject of a preservation order under the National Monuments Acts. The effect of the preservation order is that any works affecting these properties require my consent, as Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, under section 14 of the National Monuments Act 1930 as amended. The landowner’s application to my Department for consent to proposals that envisage the retention of the buildings and the provision of a commemorative centre to the 1916 Rising is being examined. In that context, I have visited the site and met various interest groups, including relatives of the 1916 leaders with whom I have toured the area and had a number of discussions.

As part of the consent process, the applicant has recently been asked by my Department to submit an environmental impact statement on the proposed works. This is in accordance with the European Union (Environmental Impact Assessment of Proposed Demolition of National Monuments) Regulations 2012, which I made in July. The regulations introduce new provisions into the National Monuments Acts to provide for the carrying out of an environmental impact assessment on any works to a national monument that involve an element of demolition. Following receipt of the environmental impact statement and having completed the prescribed consultation procedures, I will undertake a formal environmental impact assessment before making a decision on the consent application.

Any wider plans for the development of the Moore Street area would be a matter for the relevant landowners and the local authority, Dublin City Council.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister's response and compliment him on the engagement he has had on the matter. I suppose we can all regret that we have waited so long for something definitive to happen with this critical site. Is there a question of a NAMA involvement in this site or part thereof? What timescale does the Minister envisage, notwithstanding that he is awaiting receipt of an environmental impact statement? Does the Department have a plan or vision for what might happen with that site? Would there be merit in creating an informal grouping of Members of the House? There are Members from all political parties who have a deep interest in this project. Would the Minister be amenable to creating some sort of informal group to review the matter with him?

Photo of Jimmy DeenihanJimmy Deenihan (Kerry North-West Limerick, Fine Gael)
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It is well known that the entire site is under the remit of NAMA. I am awaiting the environmental impact assessment, which I hope to receive in the near future. As regards a plan and vision, planning permission for this site has been granted by Dublin City Council and confirmed by An Bord Pleanála. I understand there were no objections to the planning application to Dublin City Council. I need to adjudicate on a national monument and determine whether the proposal is adequate and whether it would fulfil the function of properly recognising the people who occupied that building in 1916 where the final war council decision was made to surrender. However, I need to adjudicate on the works that might happen on the site and how they would affect the monument. There is an all-party Oireachtas consultation group on commemorations. We have met people presenting all sides of the argument on the issue. I will meet any Deputies with ideas, but it would be adding another layer. I understand that some members of the Joint Committee on the Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht under Deputy Ciarán Lynch are considering this issue today and I believe they are meeting some experts to consider it.

There have been extensive discussions on the matter, which was also the subject of a motion in this House. The decision I will have to make will not be an easy one. However, I will make it in consultation with everyone. Everyone in this House owns 1916. Most of the parties in this House were formed following what happened at the GPO. It is in all our interests that the right decision is made.

2:20 pm

Photo of Patrick O'DonovanPatrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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An issue I raised previously in the House during a debate on a Private Members' motion on this issue is the role of Dublin City Council and in particular the formulation of its city development plan. Will the Minister undertake to look into what role his officials or predecessors played in the development of that plan, given the planning permissions granted under it.? Also, what observations, commentary or submissions were made by the Department or the Minister's predecessors in regard to the development of the Dublin city development plan? Moore Street is not the only area affected. The entire historical legacy of the northside of Dublin has been destroyed as a result of bad planning permissions granted by Dublin City Council over a number of years.

We are currently in the middle of the decade of commemorations. What did the Minister's Department do previously in terms of commentary or submissions on Dublin City Council's development plan and adoption of the area plan? If the Minister cannot respond to that question now he may revert to me on the matter. Furthermore, what plans are in place in the Department in regard to the making of submissions on the new development plan, which I understand is due in 2016?

Photo of Jimmy DeenihanJimmy Deenihan (Kerry North-West Limerick, Fine Gael)
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The Department in its current form did not exist when those decisions were made. Former Deputy Roche, who was Minister at the time, made the decision to declare 14-17 Moore Street a national monument. He and the officials involved, many of whom are now staff in my Department, must be given credit for that. They are the people who protected these buildings. It is important that is recognised. The section of the former Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government which transferred to the now Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht cannot stand condemned. The officials involved strove to protect this important site. For example, permission was granted in 1999 for demolition of the entire battlefield site but because of the decision made by former Minister Mr. Dick Roche and his officials, 14-17 Moore Street remains. These are the critical buildings of the battlefield site. The decision which my officials and I will have to make is in regard to the national monument.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Minister said that any matters relating to the development of the site would be an issue for the developer and local authority. He also said that 1916 belongs to the people. In my view, the site also belongs to the people. Given the developer in question is knee deep in NAMA and NAMA is a State body the site in question belongs to the taxpayer.

Photo of Peter MathewsPeter Mathews (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps the Deputy would switch off his telephone.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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My telephone is switched off.

It is strange that the State has not taken more control over this site given the taxpayer owns it. It would be obvious to most people looking at the over-design project that it was designed for a different time, that a scaled back version of it would make more economic sense and would facilitate development of the historical quarter, which will be good for this city.

Photo of Peter MathewsPeter Mathews (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Before I call on the Minister to respond, I will allow a brief question from Deputies Ó Fearghaíl and Kitt.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I echo what has been said by Deputy Wallace. There is a need for a plan B given the history of the site, NAMA's involvement and the question of whether the proposal as it currently stands will ever come to be.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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In addition to the Private Members' debate on this issue, a number of meetings have been held with the families, relations and friends of the 1916 leaders. Does the Minister understand the point they make in their submissions?

Photo of Sandra McLellanSandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Time is ticking on. Everyone wants to see something in place by 2016. In the Minister's view, will the building remain as is or will works on it be carried out by 2016?

Photo of Jimmy DeenihanJimmy Deenihan (Kerry North-West Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Wallace as a developer will be aware of how the system works. Planning permission in respect of most of this site was granted through An Bord Pleanála. Dublin City Council and other agencies will have to deal with that matter. I only have control or authority over the national monument. My function is to determine what effect the works carried out will have on it. The remainder of the site is a matter for Dublin City Council. Also, there are conditions attached to the planning permission. I will be looking at works will possibly affect the national monument site.

In response to Deputy Ó Fearghaíl's question regarding a plan B, I am not aware of any plan B. The only proposal thus far is for the carrying out of extensive work on the national monument by the owners of the site. I have asked the developer to carry out an environmental impact assessment to determine how the site is likely to be affected. Following receipt of the EIS and advice from my officials, taking into account the views put forward by the many different groups involved, I will make my decision. That decision will then go before Cabinet. The issue of the need for a plan B was also discussed in committee.

I am not sure I understood Deputy Kitt's question. However, I am very aware of what is happening. This matter, more than any other, has exercised my mind and those of my officials. It is a subject that has been dear to me since I took up my appointment as Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. I have listened to what everyone had to say. Nobody can accuse me of not having listened to them. I have visited the site on two occasions. I am very much aware of what is happening.

In response to Deputy McLellan, if this proposal cannot work we will then have to look at alternative proposals. This is the only proposal before me. There is no other proposal in terms of development of the national monument from anyone else at this time. I am aware that the families of the 1916 leaders have put forward a proposal in respect of the entire set. However, the only proposal in respect of work to the national monument is from the developer, who will do the work free of charge.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Minister said that planning permission was granted to the developer. However, the developer is involved with NAMA, which now owns the site. As such, NAMA owns the planning permission. The Minister has more control than he realises. My understanding is that once a developer is involved with NAMA it is within its remit to control the sites involved, which are owned by the taxpayer. Is that correct?

Photo of Jimmy DeenihanJimmy Deenihan (Kerry North-West Limerick, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy will be aware that NAMA operates at arms length from Government as such Ministers cannot direct NAMA to do anything. I have no doubt that Deputy Wallace knows that.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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Unfortunately, I do.