Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Deputy Donnelly is in possession.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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The question is what can be done about the serious crisis in our third level institutions, including our universities. I put it to the Government there are some things it can do right now which will begin to address this growing crisis, and the first of these is to increase funding. The Minister will be aware of the Hunt report, which stated an extra €500 million was needed to plug the gap in college funding up to 2020. Universities themselves must get a lot better at fund-raising, and they can look to the US universities as probably the best in the world at this. The Government can play an active role in helping them to achieve this. In particular, it could provide low interest or zero interest rate loans on student fees whereby, as in models such as the UK's, these would kick in once the graduate's salary reached a certain level. It would be very important that the additional fees were ring-fenced to improve teaching quality for the students.

We can also look at recruiting more students from overseas. Some 1.3 million Chinese students attend foreign universities, with 100,000 studying in London alone last year. It is estimated each of these spends some Stg£20,000 between fees and living expenses, making it an industry worth Stg£2 billion every year. There is a huge market, if we can get the rankings of our universities high enough up the tables that they can attract foreign students.

More choices can be made in terms of diverting money to the universities. For example, a short-term increase in higher-end income tax would raise several hundred million euro which could be invested in the universities. Not paying increments would save €250 million which could be diverted to third level institutions and universities. The Government has made the choice to cut that money from our third level institutions and to pay increments at a time of national economic crisis. These are not smart choices for the future of this country or for the future of education.

It may seem a strange thing to suggest that we should invest more in the middle of an IMF mission, but I would like to draw the Government's attention to the case of Finland. In the early 1990s, Finland broke away from the Soviet Union, its major trading partner. Unemployment in Finland went up from 3% to 18% and Finland increased its investment in education and research and development. This is something we must do. We must get serious about setting a vision and some targets. We must stop massaging the data, suggesting we are doing fine. We are not doing fine. The data is unambiguous and our universities are in freefall. This is a national crisis.

We must expect more of ourselves and must expect and demand more of our educators. Other countries do this successfully. For example, Singapore has two universities in the top 100 in the world, Switzerland has three and the Netherlands has five. This can be done and is by no means beyond our ability, but we must set the vision that this is what we will achieve. Otherwise, it will not happen. We must also give universities the tools they need to transform their performance as they do not have these tools currently. A comment made by a former president of UCD comes to mind. In response to some criticism some years ago, he said: "You want me to give you a world class university, but I have to pay my best professor and my worst professor exactly the same wage. I cannot do it." A former president of DCU on the same issue said: "You want me to turn DCU into a world class university, but 80% of my spend is beyond my control. I cannot do what you want if I only control €1 in €5 that I get." We must recognise that this cannot be done unless we let these people find and hire the best staff, give them the freedom to equip those staff to teach in a world class manner and hold them accountable for what they do.

We must emphasise the teaching. Many of us know that in a significant number of third level institutions, teaching, in terms of career advancement, is not taken seriously. The advice many young staff looking for academic posts are given is to concentrate on their research, get papers out and not worry too much about the teaching because that is not what will get them posts. We must change that culture or this will not work. There is little formal feedback from students and they do not really have a voice. Someone could be teaching rubbish year after year and although all the students are aware of that, they have no voice. They have no ability to feed into the system and suggest that this person should not be teaching them. It would be interesting to discover how many teaching staff in our third level institutions have been removed from their posts over the past five years for bad quality teaching. It would also be interesting to discover how many had been promoted for providing excellent teaching. I suspect the numbers would be very close to zero.

In summary, the crisis of falling standards in our schools, third level institutions and universities is as important as the debt, banking and economic crises. If we do not sort this crisis, it will be as big a medium to long-term problem as the economic crisis is in the short term. We have an opportunity to act and the Government can make some choices. It can reverse the cuts. Finland did it in the 1990s and we can do it. The tough decisions should be made. We can and should set bold and ambitious targets and the management teams must be given the tools they need to help them change the culture, get the best people, support them and hold them accountable. If we do that, we can begin to turn the situation around. The new qualification and quality assurance authority is a first step, but the Government must go much further.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Like others, I broadly welcome the amalgamation of HETAC, FETAC and the National Qualification Authority into this new body, the QQAI. It makes sense to tidy up and streamline the various bodies that deal with quality assurance and educational awards and to make them compatible with similar systems across Europe. However, following on our discussion earlier on schools like Newpark, the best quality assurance in the world is meaningless if we do not put the necessary resources into the provision of education. It is difficult to see how even the most beautifully streamlined quality assurance structure or administration will make a blind bit of difference if we have secondary school students trying to learn science, for example, in science labs that are not fit for purpose, where tiles are falling off roofs, there is no hot running water, there are serious health and safety issues and where hazardous science equipment is stored unsafely. This is just one school. The Minister of State made the point earlier that there are other schools even worse. It is an alarming prospect if that level of dilapidation exists in the amenities and facilities available at second level for students and, similarly, when significant budget cuts are imposed at third level.

This is all happening against a background where, essentially, a demographic bomb is working its way through our education system, in that approximately 10,000 extra young people are joining the education system every year. This will work its way up through second and third level. If we cut our already inadequate resources, facilities and amenities and cut budgets, we are storing up a very large problem. As Deputy Donnelly said, if there is any way out of the economic mess we are in, it is through investing in all levels of our education system and in our young people. This is critical if we are to chart a way out of the mess. In the end, skilled and educated people are the raw material that will allow us work our way out of economic crisis. Cutting budgets and resources for education in general seems a little like shifting deck chairs on the Titanic.

Other concerns have been raised with me. There is significant concern among staff of the various authorities being amalgamated and merged with regard to conditions. Whereas their remuneration will not be affected, it is unclear in the Bill whether they can transfer their conditions, entitlements and pension rights when they move to the new body. Can the Minister of State give us some assurance that there will be no interference with or downgrading of their terms and conditions or pension entitlements, given the new single pension scheme, and so on? Can he clarify what their rights and entitlements and other terms and conditions will be when they move to the new amalgamated body?

Another important issue is the composition of the board of the new body. A number of people involved in the education sector have raised a concern about the lack of stakeholder involvement. There is a lack of representation of education providers and, I might add, students, on the new board. On 27 March, I asked the Minister about the lack of involvement of stakeholders on the board and I am concerned by the response I received.

He could not justify stakeholder involvement on the board because it would make it unwieldy and he intended to confine its membership to suitably qualified individuals who had an appropriate mix of skills and experience in areas such as corporate governance and financial expertise. What the hell has corporate governance and financial expertise got to do with an authority that is responsible for educational standards? A mindset that prioritises corporate governance and financial expertise over educational expertise is a cause for concern. I ask the Minister to reconsider the decision to exclude stakeholders because, given their knowledge of education, they are the best qualified people to judge standards and awards.

Representatives of English language schools have described the economic benefits of involving them as stakeholders on the board. One individual pointed out that the failure to reserve a place on the board for language schools was a break with past practice and that it would deny the sector access to decision making at an executive level. This individual felt strongly that, as major stakeholders in the international sector, approved language schools should have a voice at that level and that their absence would have a detrimental effect on regulation of the sector in the long term. Every 100 international students from places like the Middle East and Asia produce 15 additional jobs in the economy. One teaching post is created for every 15 students. This is an expanding area for the small and medium enterprises that the Government claims it wants to support. Why are the experts in this area not represented as stakeholders on the board? Similar arguments could be made in respect of other third level areas.

I am not saying administration, financial expertise and corporate governance are completely irrelevant to quality assurance in the education system, but why is the emphasis on these skills rather than the involvement of stakeholders and education providers?

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak on this important Bill. Deputy Donnelly made reference to China and London. University College Cork has an extensive relationship with Shanghai and China generally. The European Chinese experience is working quite well in UCC and is bringing economic benefits to the university and the city. Furthermore, it shows the world that we have a university with world class standards that puts learning at its core and has established itself in China.

It is important that we take a holistic approach to this debate by considering standards of and access to learning and what we want from education. The Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills, Deputy Cannon, is closely involved with developing a model of education which requires movement and change. As a school teacher, I recognise the dedicated and committed teachers who work in every classroom and every school. At all levels of the education system such individuals empower and challenge their students to learn. We often hear media commentary which decries the quality of education but I challenge those who are interested in education to look at the way our examination system expects students to learn by rote in some cases.

All of us agree on the need to consolidate and make government smaller and more centralised in some cases. The creation of a single body will, I hope, increase efficiency in the Department of Education and Skills and bring a sense of identity to the awarding bodies. In my experience of adult and continuing education as a director a school in Ballincollig, FETAC was a welcome addition to the education sector because it gave people a sense of purpose as well as a qualification. That is very important today.

Resources alone will not change the quality of our education system. We are spending sizeable sums on education and I ask where the money is going. We must make the education system more agile and responsive to evolving trends worldwide. If the education system is as bad as some people make it out to be, what is the reason for the amount of foreign direct investment and the quality of postgraduates attracted to this country? We should identify the areas where the system is deficient and improve them. Educational providers will find it easier to deal with a single agency.

The former Minister for Education and Science, Batt O'Keeffe, has called for the National University of Ireland to be abolished but that is not necessarily the correct course of action. Further debate is needed on this. We should aim to improve the reputation of our education system both domestically and internationally. The system should facilitate people in attaining their ambitions. It is critical that the new body delivers international best practice if we are to attract investment and equip students for the marketplace and the world. The new body should engage in ongoing consultation with employers when deciding on policy and validation criteria. Equally, the third level sector must engage with business if it is to ensure the continued relevance of courses and qualifications.

This Bill reflects the Government's commitment to reduce the number of quangos. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport has led the way in this regard. As of last November, we have seen movement by the Government in terms of abolishing and merging quangos and further plans are afoot in this regard.

University College Cork has a strong reputation for professionalism and it has improved its position in the world university ranking system. It is ranked at 100th position by employers, which is an improvement on its rank last year. That is a tribute to the way the college is going under the stewardship of Dr. Michael Murphy. In research, Ireland has moved from 36th in the world to our current position of 20th, a significant jump. UCC is the only university in Ireland to achieve five-star status. We have serious issues in our universities but much excellent work is also being done. It is wrong to paint a picture of this being all negative when much positive work is being done.

Terence Flanagan (Dublin North East, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the introduction of this Bill, which will streamline the existing national qualifications and quality assurance bodies and reduce the number of quangos. The National Qualifications Authority of Ireland, the Higher Education and Training Awards Council, and the Further Education and Training Awards Council will amalgamate into a new single national agency, the Qualifications and Quality Assurance Authority of Ireland. The authority will provide a more integrated service to learners nationwide in further education, higher education and training. It will also take responsibility regarding quality assurance reviews of universities to ensure they are providing the highest quality of education. They will also take over responsibilities that lie with the Irish Universities Quality Board.

Each of these universities and agencies have successful records and have performed well. Combined, they will provide increased productivity delivered more efficiently. The main functions of the new authority will be to set out standards for students to achieve before receiving awards, to review providers to ensure that they are meeting standards of quality and to promote, maintain and further develop the national framework of qualifications. The body will be responsible for upholding Ireland's strong international reputation for excellence in third level education and to ensure awards are recognised within the framework of qualifications.

The new authority will create a consistent and clear system of quality assurance and qualifications in education and training in Ireland. It will develop the national framework of qualifications and work with providers to ensure that greater opportunities will be available to learners nationally for participation in high quality training and education. The framework will be further developed by the new authority, which will later result in more opportunities for learners.

The authority will work closely with the Government to ensure that it is aware of any education and training issues that need to be improved. Importantly, it will advise the Departments of Education and Skills and Enterprise, Jobs and Innovation on national policy on learning and qualifications and lifelong learning. It will oversee the implementation of the policy. It will continue to raise awareness of how qualifications are organised and review the policies and criteria on which the framework is based. The authority will decide the standards of learning that must be met by the provider before an award is given. This will strengthen the quality assurance system, which will be of benefit to learners. This is welcome.

A constituent has been in contact with me to highlight concerns with section 21(2) of the Bill. The concern is that it may not protect the rights of workers in the new organisation. I am aware that a number of people have concerns about this and they would like the section to be modified to include all rights of workers in the organisation and not just remuneration. They would like this section to be changed to include tenure, fees, allowances, expenses and superannuation. This is something the Minister should take on board and examine in more detail.

I support the Bill. The proposed reduction in the number of quangos is to be welcomed. Our education system is envied on a worldwide basis and all our universities are in the top 5% in the world. Many multinationals come to Ireland because of our excellence in education. We need to continue that and we must not become complacent. The introduction of the Bill is a step in the right direction to ensure that reputation is protected.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the provisions in the Bill. My colleague, Deputy Terence Flanagan, listed the range of organisations to be amalgamated, from the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland, the Further Education and Training Awards Council and the Higher Education Training Awards Council. Apart from streamlining, it also makes sense.

I also acknowledge the role of the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, in seeking potential synergies on a cross-Border basis. While there are provisions in the Bill to examine international education codes of practice within the parameters of the National Framework of Qualifications, we should also monitor what is happening on a cross-Border basis. In 1998, we signed up to the Good Friday Agreement, according to which we must look at linkages and synergy in education on a North-South basis. It is important to keep an eye on what is happening on the ground. I welcome the Minister's proactive stance on this point.

I suggest the Minister examines what is happening on the ground. On the same basis that a team may look good on paper to football managers, politicians may think cross-Border ideas look good on paper. However, it is better to engage with people on the ground who know best practice better than politicians. One example is the North West Education Action Group, based in County Fermanagh. It is considering links on a North-South basis at second level. I spoke to a number of representatives, who are looking back to the practices of 60 and 65 years ago, when many from Belleek, County Fermanagh studied in schools in Ballyshannon. We must explore the vision and potential that people see on the ground in Border constituencies. Things will change, particularly given the fact of a Government led by Sinn Féin and the DUP. The Sinn Féin Minister is in the business of closing down schools, particularly rural primary schools, in Keady and Aghavilly, County Armagh, both of which closed in January. The minimum threshold at secondary school level is 500 pupils.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Deputy McHugh never stops.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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If secondary schools along the Border do not meet the minimum threshold of 500 students, they will also close. The rationale and philosophy of the Sinn Féin mantra in Northern Ireland is, if I am not mistaken, a form of austerity, which is a word much used in this House. It is important for us to engage on the ground because we have schools south of the Border that will not be closed. We have rural primary and secondary schools that we will not close. We must examine the potential of synergy on a North-South basis, where there will be a movement of people from North to the South to avail of services.

If that will happen at primary and secondary level, we must be prepared for what will happen at university level. It is sad that only 1% of all students in university in the South of Ireland come from Northern Ireland. That is a small percentage and the corollary is that only 3% of students in Northern Ireland are from the Republic. It is a poor reflection on the movement of people on a North-South basis.

I am digressing from the Bill. If there are any changes at primary and second level, we must prepare for changes at third level. Provisions in the Bill examine international codes of practice and should also include examining areas of co-operation on a North-South basis. Education linkages and synergy are integral to the Good Friday Agreement.

I cite the example of families in my constituency whose children attend Magee University. They will receive the maintenance grants, but they will have to pay their fees themselves. We should consider ways of achieving a reciprocal relationship between North and South so that students from the South would be encouraged to study in the North rather than going to Liverpool or Glasgow, for example. Incentives should be devised to encourage students to study in Ireland, North and South. I cite an example from my constituency of a father who will have to find €3,000 in fees in order to send his daughter to study 15 miles away in a university in Derry. People hear the talk about cross-Border co-operation, but they do not see the results on the ground.

Primary and second level schools are closing in Northern Ireland. Two schools closed in Armagh in January. Secondary schools which do not meet the minimum threshold of 500 students are being closed. It is time to prepare for the next stage of North-South integration and this must include an integration of university qualifications.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak on Second Stage of the Qualifications and Quality Assurance (Education and Training) Bill 2011. Education is a vital part of Irish society and particularly in the current economic climate because education and training will play a significant part in the solution. Young people and teachers must be protected against the austerity brigade who are in this House and in society. The current Government policies on education and other areas are generating poverty and undermining a recovery that should be inclusive. Poverty and education seem to have disappeared from the mainstream political agenda and it is my duty to keep those issues on the agenda. There needs to be a common-sense response to providing solutions to the problems of this State. The future depends on education.

The purpose of the Bill is to provide for the amalgamation of a number of education bodies as part of an overall agency rationalisation programme announced by the previous Government in the 2009 budget. The amalgamation was confirmed in a commitment in the current programme for Government. The bodies concerned are the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland, the Further Education and Training Awards Council and the Higher Education and Training Awards Council. The new organisation will also be responsible for the functions currently performed by the Irish Universities Quality Board which was established by the universities themselves to assure their quality assurance arrangements. In addition, the Government agreed measures in June 2009 to promote and regulate the international education sector and this is to be welcomed. Provisions in this Bill are designed to empower the amalgamated organisation to develop an international education marque and code of practice for international education, including the English language sector.

Standards in education must be applied from the initial levels of education with the youngest children. The first day in preschool is a key day for most children and educationalists recognise the importance of a good start in education. The Minister of State, Deputy John Perry, will be aware of the question of the closure of small rural schools. Today, I met a group of parents and teachers involved in such schools in the west which are being hammered because of the closure of small rural schools.

We had some victories in the campaign for DEIS schools but some of them are suffering the cuts and the squeeze. I refer to the summer projects which are based in many schools during the summer holidays. Many teachers and principal teachers have contacted me in recent weeks concerning the reduction in the number of these educational projects.

FETAC has played an important role in Irish education. My experience of FETAC relates to children with a disability and the education system must be designed to support all children with an intellectual disability. Many children with physical disabilities are provided with a top quality education and are high achievers. However, we must ensure maximum support for the children and adults with an intellectual disability and FETAC plays a significant role in this regard.

I refer to the problems of literacy. There have been many positive changes in Irish education over the past decade and in the DEIS schools in particular. They are examples of good educational practice. I suggest that many mainstream schools could learn from the system in the DEIS schools because their system is often boring and old-fashioned. On the other hand, one will see in the disadvantaged schools the use of a radical curriculum as a means of dealing with major literacy and numeracy problems. Examples of good practice in these DEIS schools could be adapted for use in other so-called wealthier schools which seem to be focused on getting points for university and churning out students who may not have received a proper, rounded education.

There are talented young people in second level education who have great ideas for setting up businesses. These students may not come out with a certain number of points in their leaving certificate examination but we must realise that they have a contribution to make. They could be the people who will start a small business and employ five or ten people . There is a lot of talk and waffle in this House about foreign investment but-----

Derek Nolan (Galway West, Labour)
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Lots of waffle.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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-----most of the workers in this State are employed by small businesses. The education system, in particular at second level, should be designed to encourage such students. I know some changes are being implemented and I welcome those positive changes.

I fully support rationalisation because there must be efficiencies. However, I hope the notion of rationalisation is not used as a cover by some of my colleagues in the Labour Party for the cutting of education services. There is plenty of room for reform and for efficiencies. We want value for money in the education sector but we cannot drain the blood out of the system, which provides an excellent service to many people.

I refer to the potential for the provision of English language education. We must facilitate international students to come to study here and, in particular, students from China. I have been in contact with a number of ambassadors who have said they want to send more students to Ireland to learn English. This is a very important sector. The Bill sets out the overall structure of the amalgamated organisations and provides for functions in the areas of the maintenance and implementation of the National Framework of Qualifications and external quality assurance of educational providers. We must ensure that we get quality standards in that regard.

Thousands of young second level students want to get involved in the education sector. I want to ensure that these educational providers of the future are given maximum support. I wonder at times whether reducing their salaries will seriously damage the future of the education sector. We must value education because it represents the potential for the future.

The Bill also deals with the recognition of Irish awards internationally as well as the recognition of foreign awards here. In addition, the legislation will set standards of access to educational training programmes, as well as the transfer and progression between such programmes. It also sets standards for awards, validation programmes for educational training, and the regulation of providers of education services to international students.

There is massive potential to develop the sector's economic value for the State. In this time of crisis, the State needs as much money as it can get. Foreign students come here to learn English and other subjects, as well as paying for accommodation and spending money in the economy generally. All of this makes a great contribution to the economy. The Government should not close its mind to the options.

I recently met the Iranian ambassador who was annoyed, upset and disappointed by the closure of the Irish embassy in Teheran. He said that Iran did approximately €80 million worth of trade with this country. He also said he wanted to send Iranian students to Dublin to learn English. The Minister should open his eyes to the potential for such economic and educational developments.

The Bill's provisions cover a number of education and training providers such as existing universities and their link providers, including the colleges of education. Radical changes are needed in our universities and we must all up our game in this regard. I referred earlier to the urgent need for radical reform in the primary and secondary sectors, but the bottom line is to ensure high standards and good practice.

As regards the university sector, we must wake up to the real world and ensure that we have productivity, efficiency and reform. The Bill also covers the National University of Ireland and its recognised colleges, as well as new universities which can be established under section 9 of the Universities Act 1997, although there are none such at present. The legislation refers to other providers with awarding powers, including the Dublin Institute of Technology and the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland.

I commend the DIT and other institutes of technology on the major contribution they have made to this country. Top class students are graduating from those institutes, but we must also be vigilant about maintaining their standards and quality.

The Bill refers to providers whose programmes are validated by VECs, FÁS and the institutes of technology which have delegated authority to make awards. Others, including English language providers, have applied to be granted the quality mark provision of education to international learners.

As regards the broader debate on education, we must ensure that stakeholders are protected, guided and reformed in a positive and constructive manner. We must also be vigilant about working conditions, including pensions.

A number of Deputies have referred to standards, including those in teacher training colleges. We should not be afraid to examine this matter because good, solid, basic academic qualifications are required. We must also ensure that the right people go into the right educational jobs. People can have many CAO points from their leaving certificate examinations, but it does not necessarily make them good teachers suitable to work with young children in disadvantaged areas. Teachers must have good communication skills and a positive attitude towards the day job. It may be old-fashioned to say so, but teaching was always like that for me. Many years ago, it used to be said that we got a call to training. At that time it was like winning an All Ireland if one got a call to teacher training. It was a big honour for a family. I remember my late father cycling up to the post office saying: "My son got a call to training." At that time it was a very honourable thing. As well as getting the academic qualifications, we were hauled into St. Patrick's College in Drumcondra to be interviewed by psychologists and educationalists. We had to do interviews to see if we would be suitable to work with young children. We need to be creative about that because the old stuff that went on was very positive.

When push came to shove in the recent debate, the Minister saw examples of good practice in many DEIS schools. They upped their game, increased productivity and were examples of good practice. Such good practice could be transferred to some of the so-called mainstream or very exclusive schools. Standards and good practice are very important.

We should not be afraid to examine education systems around the world that have high standards. I know about this from direct experience. It may not be politically correct to say so at the moment, but when I was in Cuba a couple of years ago I visited primary and secondary schools with top quality standards of service and education. The Cubans had two things in their revolution which I strongly support - education and health.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The highest levels of literacy are in Latin America.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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That is right, yes. I thank the Minister. The productivity and delivery there was of absolutely top quality. There is no reason we cannot do this, or why we should not be directly involved.

I welcome the legislation because there is a need for change and rationalisation. I also think there is a need for common sense. In having this debate we must always strongly emphasise the standard and quality of education. By doing so, we will have a bright future for the country.

Derek Nolan (Galway West, Labour)
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I wish to share my time with Deputy Alex White.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Derek Nolan (Galway West, Labour)
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I am fortunate to represent a city that has two thriving third level colleges - the Galway-Mayo Institute of Technology and NUI Galway. Both colleges cater for more than 20,000 students. As the population of Galway is only approximately 70,000, the student numbers represent an influx during the academic year. The students completely change the city's dynamic, feel and intellectual atmosphere, including the rigour of debates.

The importance, standard and reputation of our education system are extremely important. I have had much interaction with students from across the country and internationally. In my constituency office on Monday, I met a doctoral student from Sri Lanka who is studying here. She is doing her fourth year for a PhD in economics in NUI Galway and has almost completed her studies. In order to maintain our high level of education we must ensure that the required facilities are in place. In that way, students who wish to avail of such courses will be looked after properly. The individual I referred to is having terrible problems with her residency status - her children are staying with her - because her course is running over by a number of months.

In order to maintain that international hub for education, we must offer the correct services to those who come here to contribute to our education system. In addition, they contribute to learning and to the economy generally.

Deputy Finian McGrath and others have said that the importance of the education sector cannot be underestimated. We have seen a welcome spate of job announcements across the country recently, but particularly located in Galway, I am thankful to say. All the CEOs, other key decision-makers and people who work in marketing say that people come to work here not just because of our economic climate or tax status, but also because of the educational qualifications of our graduates whose skills can be applied in the workplace. Ensuring our education system has proper quality standards is important and it will also have practical knock-on consequences for our economy and country.

There is a great niche market in education for this country if we get the quality standards right and develop a reputation internationally as being a place for scholastic excellence. This country could then well become an island of scholars - we might have to drop the words "and saints" - to which people can feel free to come and learn. We could market the country as being one where education is valued, resourced and of high quality.

The Bill is not quite as grand in its aspirations as those I outlined but it is nonetheless a very welcome development amalgamating, as it does, the various bodies, the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland, the Higher Education and Training Awards Council, the Higher Education Authority and the quality assurance functions of the universities. The primary function of the Bill is to bring much greater coherence to the quality assurance system. It is a timely initiative and I commend the Minister on his dedication to the legislation.

With the enormous increase in participation rates in further and higher education in recent decades and the continuing demand for the provision of courses in many new and emerging disciplines, it is vital that standards are maintained and that quality is not sacrificed or compromised in any way. This is of great importance to learners who need to navigate their way through a sometimes baffling array of course choice from several providers. Those learners need to be assured that the programme they chose has been properly vetted and validated and that assessment procedures are fair and appropriate for the level of the course they pursue. It is also of huge significance to potential employers who need to be able to trust that qualifications are of an appropriate standard and relevance to particular work areas and have been independently and professionally assessed and validated.

The Bill is also of great importance to all those interested in policies that deal with access, with possibilities for transfer of credits from one course or institution to another and for those interested in promoting and developing the future of lifelong learning routes for all our citizens. Through this Bill it should be possible to enhance the development of clear routes for advancement through the various levels of national qualifications and quality assurance.

The importance of the Bill also transcends national boundaries and is of enormous significance for the internationalisation agenda of education in this country as it will establish a code of practice for those intending to provide courses for international learners. By maintaining a register of those authorised to use the international education mark, it will provide for the protection of learners. For learners educated in this country, it will facilitate the recognition of their awards internationally and, equally importantly, facilitate recognition in this country of appropriate awards gained elsewhere. All this is very necessary if professional mobility is to be facilitated and promoted.

I would like to add my experience of the quality of education I received at third level. I graduated from NUI Galway in 2005 with a law degree, an LL.B. I remember looking back on my time there and thinking how would I rate the quality of the education I received. I would be very much of the view that the teaching by lecturers and tutors was of a very high standard. However, I often felt there was somewhat of a conveyor belt attitude in terms of the number of students that could be fitted into an oversized lecture hall to increase the numbers on courses and the standards of checking to monitor how students were doing, whether there were enough assignments or whether examinations tested if one understood law or was simply capable of regurgitating the cases and statutes one was expected to learn and so on. That was evidenced for me in how the universities across Ireland have been measuring their success to some degree.

I recently received an alumni magazine from NUI Galway outlining some of its key achievement in recent years, all of which seem to focus on items that are more like the achievements of a property developer than an educationist. There was reference to new buildings for business, engineering and X, Y and Z but very little to the courses it has introduced, the critical thinking it advocates and the new ways it has of measuring performance and student learning, which I would have imagined would be much more important to those who are attending it. The building in which one learns is important but what and how one is taught, measured and evaluated seems to me to be much more important.

Academics have warned, and President Michael D. Higgins spoke of this in his remarks when conferred with an honorary doctorate by the National University of Ireland recently, of the commodification, as some people would see it, of the third level sector in particular. We no longer view third level as a place where people can be taught to think, to have their own views with regard to arts, the humanities and so on, and apply those creatively to what would be considered the more concrete subjects such as commerce and so on. In the quality standards they apply, universities must have some way of working in these intangible elements, which are equally as important to an educational environment as the factual and practical outputs such as experiment, project or thesis.

Ireland has much to benefit from having a quality educational reputation. This Bill goes a long way towards amalgamating many of the fragmented structures we have. That will save money, which is important, as good housekeeping is very much required at this time for our economy. It will also provide a means for one central body to have a strategy and a vision Ireland's educational reputation that ensure that we can raise that level over time to become an island of scholars, a place where educational excellence is achieved. It will at the same time maintain and value that which is not so concrete or measurable, that esoteric thinking, difference of opinion, critical analysis and thinking outside the box that is so important for the creative economy which links into the successful and real economy we have.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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As Deputy Nolan said, despite the undoubtedly huge challenges we have economically, the level and quality of education at all levels remains high. The challenge is to protect and enhance it and in particular to protect, enhance and add to, as best we can, investment in education at all levels. As the months and years go by in this protracted economic crisis not only here, but worldwide, increasing numbers of people realise how essential it is that governments concentrate their efforts on investment in the future, on investment in education and training. Despite the enormous challenges the Government faces, it should be congratulated on substantially maintaining an investment in and a commitment to education at all levels. If people were to examine the economic situation in which we are in and the financial challenges we face, it would surprise many of them that we have still managed, for example, to bring forward an impressive school building programme, which is under preparation for implementation.

We are concerned in this debate with third level education, the importance of standards and of having an integrated system of standards and quality assurance in third level education. This is an important Bill in that regard. Essentially, it does not appear - the Minister can correct me if I am wrong - to change the basic policy formulation in regard to how standards are to be maintained and assured but it will amalgamate the four bodies that previously were responsible for the different sectors into one. I made a point recently in regard to another area where an amalgamation of agencies was taking place. It is vitally important that when we are doing this we understand the rationale for doing it. We should have an expectation that the rationale would extend beyond simply financial savings, important as that is. Anything we can do to save costs is vital and it is important we should do that.

However, as legislators, we should also be looking to see is there a rationale in substance for making the policy change or implementing the changes proposed. There is in this case. It has been well set out by the Minister and it is clear. In 1999, when the systems for evaluating quality were brought forward in the various sectors, they had a job to do and they have done it admirably. It appears to make sense that the respective expertise they have built up in the different areas could be more appropriately done through one agency which can bring all the various areas under the one roof when it comes to the narrow area of standards and their assessment. The same instruments will not be appropriate to assess all of them, but we should have an integrated system which we can understand and in which we can have public confidence that the same standard is applied to the assessment of standards. I may have phrased this in a very convoluted way. This is what the Bill does and it is important that it should do so.

It is admirable in the current environment that the Government has maintained a very considerable commitment to third level education and the Minister has been very clear that we will continue to maintain it. There is a crisis, or certainly a real difficulty, in the third level sector in respect of the source of funding. It is a labour-intensive business and it is vital that we enhance standards and provide opportunities for young people. We invest in them as individuals, but through them we invest in the future of the country. We have previously debated third level fees and it is extremely important that we maintain our position on the funding of education being a public good. Often this debate is not as elaborated as much as it should be.

Certain things in society are worth funding as public goods. Of course some of the benefits attach to the individuals who gain a third level education, but for the type of society we want to promote we must pool our resources through taxation and in respect of third level education make it available to those who merit availing of it. There is no controversy about whether second level education and primary education should be public goods funded by the Exchequer. I believe third level education is a similar public good and worthy of protection and funding. This does not make life any easier for the Minister or the Government when it comes to judging from where the funding will come and whether there needs to be a better public debate about Exchequer funding of third and fourth level education. If it is as vital as we believe it is for the future of the country, with investment being so important, perhaps we should sponsor a higher level of debate on the issue and the desirability and importance of funding third level education.

I made a point on having the various sectors under one roof for the purpose of qualifications and quality assurance. There has long been a debate on the dichotomy between university education and the technical and vocational sectors. It is right they should be drawn together in the Bill. However, further debate is necessary on the future direction of third level education, where we allocate resources and which areas we privilege for resources. If we compare ourselves to some of our competitors in Europe, we see they are far more advanced and far better at promoting technical education, educational skills and training than we are.

Even public attitudes towards the various types of third level education differ. There is a sense in people's minds that university education is privileged when it is compared to technical and vocational education. This is a pity when we consider the type of skills that will be necessary in the future. I do not state this to disagree with what Deputy Nolan stated about the importance of fostering the humanities and ensuring people who come out of third level education are well-rounded individuals with an appreciation of the value of education. However, it is important to examine whether our third level education system might give more attention to the technical side than it has done up to now.

In recent days I read a proposal from an advanced policy maker in this area to move medical and law schools from the universities into the vocational sector. I cannot see this happening any time soon here or in any comparable country but it makes one pause to consider the technical and scientific skills associated with the study of medicine. Must the study of medicine be located in a university in the traditional sense we understand it? I am using this example as a way of identifying the issue rather than advocating that we do so, although it reminds me of a related point. When we discuss reducing costs and rationalising the third level system as best we can we must consider whether we need the number of medical and law schools we have in the country.

The Minister has been very progressive with regard to the primary school sector. Several months ago I discussed with him the sharing of services between schools in a provincial town where, for instance, one school has a gym and another has another well developed facility. Of course these facilities should be shared. I am aware similar opportunities have been availed of in the third level sector but given the size of the country and our cities, opportunities for synergies and shared facilities must exist. Those of us with exposure to the third level system, whether having been there or knowing people there now, know how patches are protected and how people are reluctant to give way to sharing facilities or, dare I say it, merging departments or academic facilities. I would have no difficulty if the Minister were to say he would consider this. For these reasons the Bill is worthy of our support. It is a clear and desirable measure and its rationale has been clearly set out.

I wish to ask the Minister about the transfer of staff to the new authority, an issue which other speakers have also mentioned and I believe the Minister has addressed it. What I find very striking is that in regard to the previous transfer from the old bodies such An Foras, CERT and Teageasc, section 52 of the 1999 Act brought forward all rights and entitlements and not only pay. A policy decision must have been made to confine the benefits to pay in this case.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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No real policy change has been made. It is being expressed in a different way. I can clarify this point for the Deputy. He can rest assured we are not diminishing or disimproving working conditions.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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I am very glad and reassured to hear this.

Patrick Nulty (Dublin West, Labour)
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I welcome the establishment of the new authority and I commend the Minister, Deputy Quinn, on introducing the Bill. This debate on its establishment provides an opportunity to make some points on governance and standards in training, education and qualifications in Ireland.

I want to reflect on university life in Ireland and I agree with some of the points made by my colleague, Deputy Nolan, on the commercialisation of education. Neoliberal thought has strengthened its impact on thinking in Ireland in the body politic and in universities. The definition of the appropriate function of a university in Irish life has narrowed greatly. Great universities need great teachers. Teaching in universities needs to be valued in and of itself, but too often the modern university is less a marketplace of ideas with good teachers facilitating students in a journey of exploration and learning and more a knowledge factory. It is not good enough to conceptualise education in purely managerial or technical terms like so many heads of our universities seem to do. I listen with regret when I hear the heads of our universities speak more like chief executives of companies than leaders of centres of learning and education.

More often than not, they speak not of the good of the society, nor of the good of students, but often in terms of what is good only for the university itself and its commercial operation when its modus operandi should be educational excellence and the development of political, moral, philosophical and scientific thought in Ireland and beyond our shores.

Many good courses in our universities have fallen foul of the neoliberal model. I am concerned that courses, which facilitate people to develop the capacity to think and reflect critically about themselves and the society in which they live, may not fall into a narrow concept of third level education in years to come. It is essential that we foster opportunities for education in maths, science and technology to attract investment leading to jobs. It is equally important to foster the teaching of philosophy, sociology, social policy, the arts and humanities so that all those in the third level sector can think critically and question the powerful in our society about the foundations on which our society is organised.

The new body we are establishing must have concern for the role of education in society. It must consider universities and other third level institutions as thriving centres for ideas. Research and teaching must not be in competition with each other, but must exist alongside each other in a thriving third level sector working towards the common good. In that context I welcome that the Union of Students in Ireland has today voted for a third level education model funded fully through the Exchequer - a model that I support. Income tax should be increased on annual incomes of €80,000 or more to help pay for universal access to third level education.

The new body must ensure that the role of teaching in our universities is valued. It must advertise itself as open for business to those students who wish to consult with it in regard to the quality of teaching.

The new body will absorb the functions of FETAC. It is essential that our new regulatory structure recognises that the adult learners and those returning to education who form the bulk of those on FETAC-approved courses deserve the very best in excellence of teaching. The learners also require that approved education providers for adults and those returning to education will ensure that qualifications are fully respected when courses are complete. The new body must be promoted so that every adult learner and everybody returning to education knows the organisation has been established and has the responsibility, should problems ever arise.

Of the functions currently under the auspices of the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland, it is the issue of the regulation of English language schools that concerns me most. The schools are currently regulated by ACELS, the Accreditation and Co-ordination of English Language Services. I have profound concerns about the treatment of staff in language schools in Ireland. I know of no English language school operating in Dublin where a trade union is recognised. I know of no other industry where work is so insecure or precarious that one never hears of contracts, rarely of sick pay or paid leave. I hope the new authority will investigate that and that the Minister in his role will also look at the issues. The Qualifications and Quality Assurance Authority of Ireland we are establishing today must take on board the conditions experienced by workers in language schools if they are to take seriously education standards in these schools. Teachers must feel secure and enjoy decent terms and conditions in order to concentrate on the educational development of their students and to facilitate the sort of learning those coming to Ireland to learn English should experience.

The Higher Education and Training Awards Council is the other body that will be amalgamated into this umbrella organisation when the Bill is passed. It is the qualifications awarding body for third level education and training institutions outside the university sector. In that context I pay tribute to our institutes of technology. In my constituency, Dublin West, the IT in Blanchardstown has performed incredibly well. Students from some of our DEIS schools, such as Riversdale community college, are going in droves to these institutes of technology, representing a major step forward in the educational mix.

While I support the organisations that have been set up, they have a number of challenges, in the English language sector, the university sector and the tertiary sector. I hope this body will be cognisant of them all. I am very concerned about the commercialisation not only of third level education, but also of research in our universities. It is vital that when new ideas and products are developed within our university sector they are fostered and advanced by indigenous companies perhaps on a co-operative basis. That research should be democratically developed and controlled so that large multinational corporations - while they have a role to play - do not have monopoly in new research and development in our educational sector. While I would not discourage in any way private sector investment, particularly if it is good for the students, we must remember that first and foremost education is a social product and a social good. The courses, options and opportunities offered to students at third and fourth level should be diverse open and dictated by the educational needs of the country and our society and not by the commercial interests of the private sector.

I support the Bill and I commend the Minister on introducing it. I hope some of the points I have made today will be taken on board and that we build an education system based on universal provision funded through direct taxation, democratically controlled and in the interests of society and not for narrow commercial interests. I wish the Minister well in his challenging role.

Seán Conlan (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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The Bill is a positive instrument of change in that it addresses a prevailing situation whereby awards are being issued by different authorities with an obvious overlap occurring. The new authority will inject clarity into the awards process, while at the same time offering a more cost-effective awards authority. While NQAI, HETAC, FETAC and the IUQB were all excellent authorities and performed and served the nation well, the new QQAAI will offer the opportunity to amalgamate the services of all these bodies in order to deliver an improved, more focused and more cost-effective service.

The new body is charged with maintaining the NFQ and introducing more clarity on the organisation of qualifications. Being a single body it will be better placed to monitor and review policies regarding the NFQ and manage the access to courses, inter-course transfers and the progression of students through the system. It will also be better placed to advise the Departments of Education and Skills, and Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation on national policies on qualifications and the directions required for national policies on the certification of lifelong learning, which is an important new development in the education field and more important than ever now in the present climate, where the necessity for further education, retraining and re-employment has become a major issue for the workforce.

This new body will be able to advise both Departments on national policy regarding the accumulation and the transfer of credit and the recognition of prior learning, both here and internationally, which will become a greater issue when, hopefully, the young people who left these shores to find employment and further education, return.

The authority will set quality standards and procedures to apply across the universities of the NUI and will decide the standards of learning to be met in order to achieve an award. A single organisation must be more efficient than a number of organisations trying to provide one service and now is certainly the right time to establish the QQAAI. However, in doing so we must be aware that the amalgamation is a difficult process. I wish the IAG every success in undertaking this difficult task, which when completed will provide benefits, including a leaner, more agile and more responsive agency which will be better positioned to keep pace with international best practice. It will be more accessible and simpler to deal with for education and training providers. It will enhance the National Framework of Qualifications, NFQ, providing clarity for students and award holders and, in doing so, will enhance Ireland's provision of education and training.

In conclusion, there will be added benefit to those in our economy who are developing Ireland's reputation as a high quality provider of educational services, an area of great growth potential at this time when such was never as badly needed. They will benefit from the international education mark and code of practice, which will introduce a greater degree of strategic planning and implementation among all participating in the development of education services in this country.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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I thank the Technical Group for allocating this time for my contribution and I acknowledge the presence of the Minister.

The ideology behind this Bill, that it would be more efficient to have a single organisation to ensure quality in further and higher education and training rather than the current system which involves several bodies, some of them with overlapping responsibilities, is broadly welcome. However, I take exception to a statement made earlier in the debate when a Deputy said he was delighted that the Government was finally doing away with quangos and bringing many different organisations under a single umbrella. Whether we are talking about the Higher Education and Training Awards Council, the Further Education and Training Awards Council, the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland or the Irish Universities Quality Board, the people who served on those boards over the years would not be too pleased to hear a Deputy in the Dáil refer to the committees and boards they sat on, perhaps for many years, in that way. They gave good service, did good work and did their best at all times. It is wrong for a Member of this House to dismiss other organisations as quangos. I do not like it and wish to voice my opposition to it.

The Bill sets out the overall structure of the amalgamated organisation and provides for its functions in the area of the maintenance and implementation of the National Framework of Qualifications, the external quality assurance of educational providers, the accreditation and recognition of prior learning, the recognition of Irish awards internationally and the recognition of international awards in Ireland, the setting of standards for access to programmes of education and training and the transfer and progression between programmes, the setting of standards for awards, the making of awards, the validation of programmes of education and training, and the regulation of providers of educational services to international students. The new organisation will also take on responsibility for the external quality assurance review of the universities, a function that is currently performed by the Irish Universities Quality Board, IUQB, and the Higher Education Authority. There will also be a discussion with the National University of Ireland, NUI, about the possibility of including some of the related functions of the NUI in the new organisation. That would be very welcome.

The Bill provides in legislation for the first time for the external review of the quality assurance procedures of universities and the transfer of this function from the IUQB to the new agency. Recognised universities of the NUI establishing quality assurance procedures will have those procedures approved under the new agency. This follows the report which showed a very worrying slippage by three Irish universities in the world rankings. Trinity College Dublin is down 13 places and UCD is down 20 places, while NUI Galway is down 66 places. UCC climbed three places. In the past, Ireland had an excellent reputation both at home and internationally for the standard of education and standards in the universities. Overseas employers who came to this country to create much needed jobs considered our education system to be a model that turned out excellent, highly educated and articulate young people. It was very much an added attraction for companies coming to this country. The slippage in the rankings is something that must be addressed.

The Minister is in tune with that problem and is anxious that we go back to the position we held in the past. We do not want a situation where people who are considering coming to this country to create jobs will bring their own graduates with them. We welcome everybody, of course, but we wish to see our indigenous young population getting jobs here after receiving a good education. Whether our young people who finish university decide to stay and get jobs in Ireland or they must unfortunately go abroad, we must ensure they go with the best education possible and having been given every opportunity in this country. When they travel around the world, therefore, they will have the same standard, or better, as applies in whatever part of the world they decide to stay.

The Department claims that the amalgamation will save the Exchequer an estimated €1 million per annum, but there will be extra costs for providers of education to international students and there might be extra costs for providers who must comply with the provisions of the NFQ. However, there might be some savings for providers who currently deal with both FETAC and HETAC. Of course, any savings that might be made would be very welcome.

We had a good reputation in the past with regard to foreign students coming to study in this country, whether in our universities or in our schools. Parents from all over Europe were very glad to send their children to Ireland. They saw Ireland as a welcoming country and a place where their children would not only get a good education but also enjoy the hospitality which we were able to provide in a way, perhaps, that no other country in the world could provide. Overall, the students who came here were safe, secure and happy. When they left after completing their education, they were good roving ambassadors for this country around the world because they could refer to the good aspects of the education and hospitality they received in this country.

I welcome the work that has been done on setting up this organisation. However, I am mindful of a meeting we had today with representatives who were concerned about saving our small national schools. Education starts from the first day a child leaves home at four or five years of age to go to the local national school. The point is that we want our young people to attend their local national school. From the first day of their education it is important that young people start on the right foot. In the past, we had one of the best systems in the world in that we had small national schools in rural areas that gave young students a very special and sincere start in education, which put them on a path to being sound, grounded individuals. It prepared them for going to secondary school and on to university and then into the workforce for the rest of their lives.

I am not taking pop at the Minister about education cuts or some of the views he has about small schools, but I am taking this opportunity to plead with him. I have spoken about this before and I am sorry if I am repeating myself, but it is something in which I have a very strong belief. The people we met today are working in small schools and, thankfully, the current and past Governments have invested in those schools. If we abandon those schools, we will not save any money. The teachers are there anyway. If a school is crumbling and falling down and it would require hundreds of thousands of euro to rebuild it for only a handful of students, I would be the first to agree that the sensible to do is to let that school go or amalgamate it. However, in the case of a school with every facility, on which a fortune has been spent over the past five, ten or 15 years and in which a nice system operates, it would be shameful to walk away from such buildings. I acknowledge the Minister has not stated he wishes to close schools.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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No, I am not saying that.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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I appreciate he is not but it will happen by stealth. Changes being made with regard to the pupil-teacher ratio and school transport will have the effect of strangling and closing such schools. I can give the Minister examples and while I do not suggest he purposely is setting out to close them, my point is the effects of what he is doing will result-----

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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There are pubs closing in rural Ireland and the Government is not closing them.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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Through the Chair, the funny thing about that is-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I think we are straying a bit from the Bill.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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Sorry, a Cheann Comhairle, but the Minister strayed me.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I know but I was just going to remind the Deputy this is about the changing of-----

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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Yes, but I will bring it back.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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Through the Chair, if the Minister wishes to know, it was decisions made by Governments that currently are closing many rural pubs in particular. However, that definitely is straying from the subject. I wish to revert to our schools.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The subject of small schools also is straying.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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It is not really-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is, yes.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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-----because I am starting off at the very beginning and am talking about the need to ground students and give them every advantage in their educational life. I revert to the point I made, which is money will not be saved by amalgamating schools. The buildings will not be sold as purchasers for them are lacking. However, they will not be abandoned and as heat and light will still be provided, the standing bills will continue. Moreover, as the teachers will continue to teach in the amalgamated schools, I see no reason to go down that road.

I return full circle to the reason I began to speak about small schools, which is my belief that over the years, successive Governments have given proper attention and concern in this regard. There have been great Ministers for Education over the years. As a young person, I remember travelling to by-elections and encountering the late John Wilson. He was a terribly nice man who was really caring in his role, just as is the Minister. We have been fortunate in the Ministers who have served in this capacity over the years and my hope is for the maintenance of the high level and standards we have enjoyed heretofore. This is the reason the results showing a slippage in the rankings of the three universities is of great concern. In passing this Bill and ensuring the establishment of this umbrella organisation that will bring together the other organisations, I hope that by working collectively, not only can further slippage be avoided but the exact opposite will take place and we will rise again. Excellent people work in the universities and throughout the education system and I can see no reason that would prevent Ireland from climbing back up the world rankings to its previous position and beyond.

I look forward to going further into the issue of smaller schools at another time. I hope the issue will be debated again in the Chamber before the summer recess because it is of vital importance. As for ensuring that Ireland remains attractive as a place to study, I refer to the example of Galway, a place with which the Minister is familiar. Given the number of foreign students who study there and the associated economic boost, one certainly does not wish to see a fall in standards or in the number of those who wish to come here to receive an excellent education. I thank the Minister and the Ceann Comhairle.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I thank Deputy Healy-Rae for his comments. The debate on smaller schools will take place when the value for money report, which will be out in a matter of weeks, is available.

As for the Bill that is concluding its Second Stage debate, I thank the Deputies for all the contributions made. In particular, I pay tribute to Deputy Smith on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party and Deputy McClellan on behalf of Sinn Féin, as well as the group of speakers who spoke on behalf of the Technical Group. Some concerns have been expressed regarding the reason, in a departure from the original intentions, the NUI has been brought back into the picture. I am glad there is support for this move and it is because when in opposition, I challenged the wisdom of eliminating a recognised brand with a long history, having been established in 1908, while at the same time trying to develop Ireland internationally as a place where students would come and study. It is envisaged they would do so in colleges here or alternatively in colleges of an Irish origination associated with or linked to the National University of Ireland located in other parts of the world. Co-location, either in the Middle East or in China with colleges in those countries or regions and either the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland or the NUI, is part of a new departure in which it is hoped to implement the programme for Government's objective of doubling the participation of international students in the Irish system.

Deputy Clare Daly and others, including Deputy White, expressed some concern about the manner in which the text could be read, which would suggest that working conditions would be diminished or downgraded. The concern is that although they are not precisely the phrases used, this was the intent and such conditions as currently are held by workers in the four bodies to be amalgamated somehow would be diminished. I assure Members this was not the Bill's intent, which is to ensure the harmonisation of working practices across the four situations. For example, different leave arrangements and different arrangements regarding replacements, lunchtimes and all sorts of other matters were in place. While this concerns fewer than 50 people in total, in the future the same people will be working together in the same office. Currently there are two office locations that will be side-by-side and the intention is to enable management to harmonise and to improve the efficiency of work practices, as distinct from undermining or in any way diminishing the working protection and working conditions in respect of salary, pension rights and related matters. I wish to assure Members in that regard.

I have listened to Deputy Nolan's comments with regard to education in Galway and the fact that Galway city is a major provider of education with its two major institutions, namely, GMIT and NUI Galway. I was not fully aware of the extent to which the population of Galway comprised 20,000 students during the academic year in a city with a total population of 70,000 people. It truly must be the most academic city in the country.

A number of Members voiced concerns regarding the position of Irish universities in the various rankings and I will revert to this issue on Committee Stage. The rankings measure a number of indicators and in some cases are self-predicting. One can take a number of metrics and apply them to a set of universities whereby one consequently can predict the outcomes. For example, the Shanghai index, which was the first index to be used worldwide, was designed by the Chinese Government to measure the effectiveness and comparability of Chinese university standards when benchmarked against universities in the United States. In particular, its compilers considered the ratio of research money to outputs, as well as the quality of the research staff and teaching staff with reference, for example, to the numbers of Nobel prizewinners one might have on the staff. Consequently, one can take a set of criteria, apply it to a landscape of institutions, knowing those institutions are heavily weighted in favour of the criteria one has put up on the measurements board in the first instance, and get a favourable outcome. However, what none of the rankings do to my satisfaction is to measure the quality of teaching. For most parents and students, the quality of teaching is as important for them as is the research activity, which in many respects will not have an impact on the quality of the teaching that affects the qualifications and academic standards they will have achieved on emerging from that university.

The Irish State will take on the Presidency of the European Union starting in January 2013 and as Minister for Education and Skills, I will take up the role of incoming President of the Education, Youth, Culture and Sport Council. As such, I have informed my colleagues and officials on the Educational Council, including the Commissioner for Education and Related Matters, of my intention to advance the European proposal to introduce a ranking system entitled "multi-rank", which will measure on a European level not alone European universities, but universities in those countries prepared to associate within the Bologna process, which if my memory serves me correctly now encompasses approximately 46 member states. I recently attended a conference at which this matter was discussed at length.

I thank Members for their contributions. We will address the matters that have been raised in detail on Committee Stage. I commend the Bill to the House.