Dáil debates

Thursday, 3 May 2012

3:00 pm

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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Question 8: To ask the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government his views on the submission by the representative of the local authority engineers which challenges the conclusions of the Price Waterhouse Cooper report on fundamentals of their analysis of the water services here; his views that no further action should proceed regarding the setting up of Irish Water until the disputed issues are confirmed. [22169/12]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Question 16: To ask the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government if he will consider instead of water meters, a public works programme to fit houses with water harvesting mechanisms; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22164/12]

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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Question 21: To ask the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government with regard to the proposed installation of water meters, if he will confirm who will retain ownership of the water meters that are due to be introduced; if he intends to provide a basic free allowance per person above which the water charge will apply; and if so, if he will state the level of free use; if he will give details of the incentive that would exist for those houses or apartments which will not have a meter installed to reduce their water usage; if he plans to encourage the installation of rain water harvesting on a large scale to achieve water use efficiencies; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22170/12]

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 24: To ask the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government if he will provide a detailed breakdown of the cost for the installation of water meters per household. [22122/12]

Photo of Sandra McLellanSandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Question 31: To ask the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government the number of households in the State that will have water meters installed. [22125/12]

Photo of Martin FerrisMartin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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Question 43: To ask the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government the number of households in the State in which it will not be possible to install water meters; and the way that he invisages these households paying for their water use. [22126/12]

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 8, 16, 21, 24, 31 and 43 together.

The key objective of the Government's water reform programme is to put in place structures and funding arrangements that will ensure that we have a world class water and waste water infrastructure that meets all environmental and public health standards and is well positioned to attract foreign direct investment and support job creation and maintenance. The Government considers charging based on usage the fairest way to charge for water and has decided that water meters should be installed in households connected to public water supplies. International evidence has shown that where meters have been installed, significant reductions have been achieved in the level of consumption and this is also borne out by the water savings achieved with metering in the group water sector. Irish Water will be responsible for the metering programme and, in common with meters for other utility services, the meters will be the property of Irish Water.

The Government has also decided to assign responsibility for the economic regulation of the water sector to the Commission for Energy Regulation. The primary role of the regulator will be to protect the interests of customers and to ensure a consistent and appropriate level of service is provided to customers. My Department is working with the CER on the development of the regulatory framework for the water sector and legislation will be prepared to provide the commission with the necessary powers to fulfil its new role.

The Department estimates that there are approximately 1.35 million domestic properties connected to public water supplies in Ireland. Following detailed analysis of available data, it is estimated that up to 300,000 of these households may not be metered in the initial metering programme due to either the high cost or the technical difficulty in doing so. I expect an increasing number of households will be metered in the longer term as shared service connections are replaced and further options relating to metering apartment blocks are evaluated, including internal metering. Households which are not initially metered will pay for water on an assessed basis.

In keeping with international practice regarding water metering, the meters will be installed at the boundary of the property, most typically in the footpath at the front of a house. Detailed cost estimates on the metering programme have been prepared by my Department. However, it would not be appropriate to release these estimates in advance of the competitive procurement process. The installation of the meters is labour intensive and will provide 2,000 jobs per annum during the course of the metering programme. This is in addition to the significant employment that will be brought about through rolling out an enhanced Department water services investment programme. The framework for water charges, including the charges for unmetered customers and the level of any standing charges, will be determined as part of the regulatory process. No decision has been taken on the level of the free allowance. Almost 300 submissions were received from organisations and individuals as part of the public consultation on the water services programme. The submissions are being examined and will be taken into consideration in developing the implementation strategy for the transition of water services functions to Irish Water.

With regard to rain water harvesting, the provision of a storage tank and the cost of its installation are important considerations. The cost of installing a rain water harvesting system will be influenced by the existing roof drainage arrangements and the level of storage required. The cost of retrofitting an average-sized suburban semi-detached household with a rain water harvesting system is estimated at between €4,000 and €6,000 and would also require significant modifications to internal plumbing systems to avoid cross-contamination with the public water supply.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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I am shocked as although my question was quite specific, the Minister did not address a single part of it. The question indicated that the Minister is privy to information submitted by local authority engineers which undermines the entire premise of the establishment of Irish Water in the first place. In particular, they have pinpointed serious flaws in the PricewaterhouseCoopers study. The comparison used was Scottish Water and the analysis submitted three major flaws in this comparison. For example, the indicated pipe network, at 25,000 km, is half what it is in reality. In addition, the indicated Scottish Water staff was in the region of 1,600 but the real figure is 3,500. In other words, a picture was painted of Scottish Water being much more efficient than local authorities in Ireland in order to justify the establishment of Irish Water. There were factual inaccuracies and serious omissions and although I asked the Minister to comment, he has not even mentioned the issue. Will he answer the question I asked? Perhaps he picked up the wrong piece of paper but I would like to get an answer.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am glad Deputy Daly has intimate knowledge of the matters. The same company which carried out the independent assessment for Irish Water did it for Scottish Water, and it would understand a thing or two in the establishment of a public water utility for the provision of essential services for the people of Ireland. I understand some of the data presented in the independent assessment by PricewaterhouseCoopers on Scottish Water has been disputed by the local authority professional officers section of SIPTU in a submission to the Department. My Department is examining all the submissions it received but I should stress that the data concerned were contained in an appendix to the report for illustrative purposes only. It was one part of an assessment of 11 different types of delivery models examined.

The Deputy is again being selective in her quotes, as she was with a previous question. The skills within local authorities will continue to be an essential part of the knowledge and expertise required to roll out this essential project. I assure local authority staff that the service level agreements to be drawn up as part of this policy between Bord Gáis and the Department, with local authorities, will continue to be maintained.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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My understanding of the free allowance is that the intention was for the charge to apply to waste. The free allowance was to be sufficient for the individual in the average household and would vary depending on the number of people in the household. It appears there will be sizeable income from these charges. Will the Minister confirm that this is about charging for waste and not water?

Will the Minister confirm no contractor has been appointed at this stage? Many people are hoping to be employed to carry out this work but some have indicated they do not expect to be employed because the contracts have already been awarded? Will the Minister confirm if that is the case?

The Minister mentioned figures of between €4,000 and €6,000 in regard to water harvesting, suggesting it will not be possible to assist people in getting a source of water other than direct supply. The Minister has also indicated the meters will be at a property boundary but many will be outside the boundary at a public location. There may be a serious problem if a leak occurs between the meter and the tap, and who would pay for the repair in that case? If a pensioner, for example, is facing a repair so extensive that he or she does not have the wherewithal to deal with it, how will the problem be solved? Has that been considered in the pricing of water?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for her questions. I am sure she would agree there are always rumours. However, the notion that we have contracts given out is amazing when the only decision made is that a commercial semi-State organisation - Bord Gáis - will be the company in charge of rolling out this Irish Water project. It would be amazing for contracts to be given out already in Kildare and elsewhere. I am sure the Deputy could allay the fears in that regard.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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So that is a "No".

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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That is the only principal decision that has been made, and I presume the Deputy accepts that. The free allowance within the charge for water will form part of the discussions ongoing between Bord Gáis, the regulator, the Department and the Government. It is in the programme for Government. We are not in a position to give details of an implementation plan that has not yet been drawn up. We are in the process of formulating that plan. As the Deputy said, rainwater harvesting is expensive. However, it will save people money because this is essentially a water conservation programme. If they want to install features in their businesses and households to conserve a finite and valuable resource, I encourage them to do so. They will not have to pay as much if they have good water conservation programmes in place, in which we will assist them as part of the implementation plan.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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Therefore, they will have to pay.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We will not provide grant assistance to introduce rainwater harvesting systems. The problems identified by the Deputy such as whether the meter should be installed at the front or the back of the house will be dealt with in the same as they would be by other utility companies. I am not in the business of micromanaging decisions to implement the policy.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I have serious concerns about the direction in which the Minister is moving-----

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am surprised.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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-----in transferring powers from the local authorities.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must remind the Deputy that this is Question Time.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I know and I am coming to the point. In this case, powers will transfer from local authorities which have provided the service during the years to Irish Water. Responsibility for the licensing and roadworthiness testing of commercial vehicles is also being transferred to the RSA from the local authorities. The Minister has referred to local government reform and giving more powers to local authorities. However, under this proposal, powers will be taken from councillors. I attended a meeting last week with all the managers of Dublin City Council which was also attended by party colleagues of the Minister, including Mr. Gay Mitchell, MEP, and Deputy Catherine Byrne.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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There is a time limit.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that, but I have spoken only once.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have to adhere to Standing Orders.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I raised a question about the transfer of powers from the local authorities and the city manager, Dr. John Tierney, said, "This was in the programme for Government and I was not consulted." Is it the case that none of the local authority managers was consulted? They are the experts. Engineers have made their views known, as Deputy Clare Daly said, but it is crazy not to have consulted the managers overseeing the local authorities.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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If that was the case, I would agree with the Deputy that that would be crazy, but two local authority managers were members of the project board.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Who were they?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Kerry and Cavan county managers.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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What about Dublin and Cork city councils?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am trying to give the Deputy information. The County and City Managers Association also made a submission. Therefore, I would be surprised if any local authority manager was not aware of what was going on.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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The Minister has acknowledged that the PricewaterhouseCoopers report was disputed. In the light of this, how can he justify making the decision without exploring these issues further? Given that the company was involved in the Scottish Water project, does he not think there was a conflict of interest? How much was the company paid for its work?

What will the Minister do about the boundary issues relating to septic tanks and wastewater systems which have not been dealt with anywhere? How will the infrastructure be divided between the local authorities and Irish Water? Will the local authorities be left with the rubbish, while Irish Water is given all the best bits? There has been no clarification of this anywhere.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The local authorities will continue to be centrally involved with Irish Water delivering wastewater as well as water services. The fragmentation of local delivery has not worked because there have been many leaks and inadequate volumes and quality of water all over the country. We have to do something different because what is happening is not working. There will be an opportunity for additional finance to come into the system from the private sector to supplement the public sector to deal with the leaks and ensure we will have a substantially enhanced and accelerated programme of investment in water and wastewater services.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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From where will the additional finance come in the private sector?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It will go into Irish Water which will be a commercial semi-State company. Private investment is made in the commercial semi-State sector and these companies are in the financial markets on a regular basis.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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Give us an example.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am sure the Deputy is supportive of having a public water utility in State ownership.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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Municipal control seems to be international best practice.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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All of the issues mentioned by the Deputy have been the subject of ongoing negotiations with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Is it the Minister's intention to charge urban dwellers for the disposal of wastewater when the metering programme is up and running?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I would love to be able to provide the detail on all these matters, but the only decision made by the Government at this stage is the principal one to establish Irish Water with the commercial semi-State body, Bord Gais, rolling it out. The regulator will be consulted as part of the process. All of these issues will be dealt with as part of the implementation plan. I would love to give answers about the minute detail, but it will emerge in due course as part of the implementation plan.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to have it clarified that the Minister is not ruling out charging urban dwellers for the disposal of wastewater.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It is part of the implementation plan. I will not micromanage the implementation of these decisions. These matters will come before the Government in due course and we will make a decision as part of the implementation plan-----

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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What the Minister is saying is that we know they will be charged for water and he is effectively saying urban dwellers will be charged for the disposal of wastewater.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am saying nothing of the sort.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is not ruling it out.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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That is like asking how often do I beat my wife. Is this the Lyndon B. Johnson way of doing things - make him deny it? If that is the Fianna Fáil way of doing things, that is fine. I am interested in doing the business in solving the water issue.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Minister consider amending the building regulations to ensure that when a cistern is replaced, a dual flush cistern will be installed and that such cisterns will be installed in all new dwellings? This would be cost neutral. These cisterns save 20 litres of water per person a day.

I have asked the Minister previously about the position of those who have meters installed. There is a new water meter outside my house. Will it be ripped out?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I do not know.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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The Minister does not know a whole lot, which is a little frightening.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Minister consider my dual flush cistern suggestion?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I know that we will wait for the people who will carry out this project to come forward with an implementation plan. We have made the principal decision about who will do the work and if the experts across the House want to implement the programme, they can go through the procurement process and might receive a contract.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Minister know anything?

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I have asked the Minister to consider a suggestion I made. For the past 15 months he has been saying he is looking for suggestions. I agreed with him on the need to adopt a risk-based approach to septic tanks, but I do not agree with him on many other issues. When we make suggestions, will he try to take them on board? The use of dual flush cisterns would be cost neutral for the Exchequer and the public. I, therefore, plead with the Minister to consider amending the building regulations.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I agree with the Deputy. It is a good suggestion.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Brian Stanley should table another parliamentary question about that issue. We are dealing with a series of questions for which the time has expired. Other Deputies are waiting to have their questions dealt with.