Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach the number of times the Cabinet sub Committee on Health has met since the beginning of January 2012. [7940/12]

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach the number of times the Cabinet sub Committee on Health has met since the beginning of this year. [12201/12]

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach the number of times the Cabinet sub Committee on Health has met since the beginning of 2012. [12522/12]

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach if the Cabinet Committee on Social Protection has met recently. [13654/12]

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 4, inclusive, together.

The Cabinet sub-committee on health has met on three occasions to date in 2012 - on Thursday, 2 February, Tuesday, 14 February, and Thursday, 8 March. The next meeting of the Cabinet sub-committee on social policy is scheduled for Thursday, 24 May. It has met three times since its establishment last year - on Thursday, 9 June, Wednesday, 21 September and Thursday, 24 November, 2011.

The Deputy will be aware that, in line with Cabinet confidentiality and long-standing precedent, I do not propose to talk about specific issues discussed at Cabinet committee meetings.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach said he would not talk about issues discussed at Cabinet or Cabinet sub-committee meetings but last week he distinguished between the economic management council and meetings between the council and groups. In that spirit, has the Cabinet sub-committee on health met any groups or organisations since the beginning of January? For example, has it met the development board of the new children's hospital or are there plans for such a meeting? The absolutely priority - his Government has spelled this out - should be that the long promised new children's hospital should be built. There is the totally unacceptable situation of children on trolleys waiting for up to 12 hours. Will the Taoiseach give us any sense of any meetings with the HSE or the development board to deal with this crisis?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Before the Taoiseach replies, I wish to put it on the record that questions relating to the activities of Cabinet committees are subject to Cabinet confidentiality.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I can say for Deputy Adams's information that there is a slight difference between a meeting of the economic management council and a meeting between the economic management council and the banks. He is aware of the difference there. As he is aware, the pillar banks and Ulster Bank were before the economic management council on two occasions.

The people who are entitled to attend the Cabinet sub-committee on health are the Tánaiste, the Minister for Health, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, the Minister of State with responsibility for primary care and the Minister of State with responsibility for disability, equality, mental health and older people. As is required, people attend from different sectors of the Departments where there is cross activity involved.

In regard to the children's hospital, we have not met the group involved in it. The Cabinet approved terms of reference for that group and gave it 56 days to respond to the decision of An Bord Pleanála in regard to the proposal to build the national children's hospital on the site at the Mater hospital. That group has been set up and will report in respect of issues arising from that proposal and other options. A whole range of health issues has passed through and been decided on, both by Government and the Minister for Health. These range from the setting up of a universal health insurance implementation group tasked with drafting a White Paper on universal health insurance by the end of 2012 to the approval of proposals for a permanent risk equalisation scheme. Legislation is in train to make that valid from 2013.

The Deputy will know the special delivery unit, SDU, which has made such an impact on hospital waiting lists, was set up in September 2011. It looked at the question by visiting each individual hospital. There is a range of activities as a consequence of the discussions at the Cabinet sub-committee and the decisions of Government and the Minister arose from that.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Does the Taoiseach see a role for the Cabinet sub-committee on health in regard to the health service meeting the challenge of the approximately 4,000 employees of the health services who have retired, roughly half of whom are nurses? Does the Taoiseach recognise this cannot happen without front line services being heavily and detrimentally affected, with enormous consequences for the health service providers, including extra pressure for both them and for patients? What role does the Cabinet sub-committee on health have in advising, for example, the HSE on the consequences of the Government's disastrous austerity policies as they impact on the health service?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The value of the Cabinet sub-committee, whether in health or any other area, is to be able to draw the relevant personnel together in order to focus on the decisions that need to be made. The Deputy raised a fundamental and important point. As so many people have left the health service of their own accord because of the redundancy package, I am happy to tell the Deputy this matter was the focus of some discussion. I am also glad to tell him that for the first time I saw real evidence of full flexibility and full co-operation being applied under the Croke Park agreement. It is only fair to thank all those, whether front line staff, in nursing trade unions or clinical and medical teams, who actually looked at the situation and, because there was not an endless pit of money, asked themselves how they would implement and deal with the changes arising from the reduction in personnel. Even though there were predictions of catastrophic situations everywhere in the transition period, each hospital manager and local and regional manager signed off on their contingency plans for normal working weeks and weekends and for dealing with rosters and situations that occur from time to time due to unforeseen circumstances. It is only right to recognise the extent of real application by so many people to make that happen in the context of providing the very best care for patients in hospitals.

If the sub-committee has any value, therefore, it is in being able to draw together the decision makers and, in a strict timeline, focus attention on making the decisions that can bring about a situation where front line care staff and others can apply their exceptional qualities to patients in our hospitals. That is not something for which one can make a decision and then park it. It evolves all the time. In respect of full co-operation and full flexibility, it was a test of the Croke Park agreement and in that regard staff and everybody concerned measured up to the challenge in a very strong fashion.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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There was too much pressure.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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According to the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, an enormous programme of profound change is under way in the health service. Would the Taoiseach not agree that, if that was the case, the Cabinet sub-committee would meet much more often than it does? From the meetings outlined by the Taoiseach, of which there were three last year, I get the sense that what we are witnessing is a kind of care and maintenance approach by the sub-committee on health towards the health service in general. The general outside view is that the service is directionless and going nowhere in a hurry in regard to the Minister's plans, which nobody can really ascertain in any case. No detailed proposals on universal health insurance have been put either to officials or through the system. The board of the HSE was abolished without anything being put in its place and this has created a genuinely serious legal and governance limbo within the health service which is unsatisfactory in terms of accountability and governance.

I was gobsmacked by the Taoiseach's assertion-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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A question, please.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----that the special delivery unit has somehow had a dramatic impact on waiting times. The SDU subsumed the €80 million that had been allocated to the National Treatment Purchase Fund, which was essentially abolished or subsumed into this arrangement, with disastrous results for waiting lists, given the increase already of approximately 40% in numbers of those waiting between three and 12 months. It is extraordinary the Taoiseach should state the opposite has been the case. The actual figures, as published by the HSE, indicate there are thousands more on the waiting lists in the past 12 months, with a sharp deterioration. Would the Taoiseach agree the Cabinet and the sub-committee do not appear to be getting to grips with the enormity of the issues facing the health service, or bringing any sense of urgency to the Government structure that is to emerge for the health service?

On Question No. 4, which related to the Cabinet committee on social protection and which I tabled, I did not hear in the Taoiseach's response regarding the number of times that committee has met. One of the core roles of that committee is supposed to be the overseeing of the impact on poverty of Government decisions, taking into account independent statistics about the Government's policies. The Taoiseach will be aware that last month the ESRI completed its analysis of the most recent budget and showed how it was, by far, the most socially regressive and inequitable budget of recent years, with its financial impact falling most on those who had the least in our society. That is the complete opposite of what the Taoiseach had been claiming in respect of that budget. What was the response of the Cabinet committee on social protection to the ESRI's commentary on the budget?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The next meeting of that committee is on 24 May. It has met three times: Thursday, 9 June, Wednesday, 21 September and Thursday, 24 November. I do not at all agree with the Deputy-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It has not met since the budget.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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No, not since the budget. I do not agree with the Deputy that the process of Cabinet sub-committees is not effective. It is probably the most effective process I have seen in my time in the House in that it brings under the imprimatur of the Department of the Taoiseach the requirement for decisions to be made and timelined. This is very important within the whole process of setting up transition teams to deal with the consequences of people retiring under the public service embargo from a range of areas, be they health, justice, education, or whatever. It includes, in regard to the issues in the health service, for example, redeployment, consolidation of clinical management roles, reorganisation of services, changing of staff rosters and finding a more appropriate skill mix. Being a former Minister for Health, the Deputy is well aware that all these areas present complications, depending on the specialist nature involved, the location or the teams to be set up. People have changed rosters, moved locations, postponed leave and worked additional hours for time off in the context of their personal agreements under the Croke Park agreement.

In regard to the committee on social policy, a number of issues have been dealt with.

These include the launch of the report of the national substance misuse strategy steering group, with an expected completion date of the summer. Preparation of the care strategy, which has been around for a long time, is well advanced. The Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, expects to bring it to the Cabinet before too long. Tackling homelessness and taking the approach that money follows the client for the delivery of services to those experiencing homelessness was announced last November. That project is proceeding. The value for money review of the disability services is due for completion in the first half of 2012, which is relevant to the questions asked already. The report of the expert reference group on disability policy will be submitted to the Government within the same timeframe. Preparation for the children's rights referendum is on target and the free school year has been maintained. An allocation of additional funding of €1 million was made this year to address the needs of children with autism and a further €1 million will follow in each of the next two years. The forum on patronage and pluralism in the primary sector was launched in April 2011 and will be before the Cabinet shortly. This morning, the Government noted the report from the ESRI and the sub-committee will deal with it at its next meeting. I cannot yet confirm the agenda. Agreement was reached with NAMA to make available 2,000 properties for the purpose of social housing through leasing arrangements. The taskforce on the child and family support agency was established. These are important issues that were dealt with and considered through the Cabinet sub-committee on social policy. These topics cover a broad spectrum.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach said that the Cabinet sub-committee on health met with the special delivery unit. Three weeks ago, the Irish Association for Emergency Medicine exposed the disgraceful situation in emergency units of children's hospitals, with some children waiting for 12 hours on trolleys. I wonder if the Taoiseach had the opportunity to discuss the topic with the special delivery unit. A very useful briefing by the special delivery unit representatives took place last week. I pointed out that when they were first introduced to Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, Drogheda, when an ongoing crisis came to a head before Christmas, the number of citizens on trolleys was 45 or 46. Last week it was back to 45 or 46 and the special delivery unit representatives acknowledged a capacity issue. The Taoiseach described the special delivery unit as having made a very positive impact on hospital services but that very unit is now saying a capacity issue is causing a crisis in this particular hospital. The unit representatives also made revealing remarks about the hospital and health services in that region. Did the Taoiseach have the opportunity to discuss with the special delivery unit representatives the totally unacceptable situation where children are on trolleys for up to 12 hours and the fact that capacity is a problem in terms of 46 or 47 adult citizens ending up on trolleys?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I did not meet with the special delivery unit or have the discussion Deputy Adams had the opportunity to have at the committee meeting. I do not have the details of the evidence given to the Deputy at that meeting. Suffice it to say, the Minister for Health indicated that last week, for the first time ever, there was no count of those waiting for trolleys in Galway, which is an exceptionally busy hospital. The escalation alarm in the Mater Hospital was put in train on 8 March because 17 patients were waiting on trolleys. By 4 p.m. that day, during a very busy week, that figure had reduced to four. I have been in many hospitals over the years and it is very unnerving and intrusive for people to be lying on trolleys in hospital corridors while others are passing up and down. Sometimes people are in areas where there is a lack of privacy and people can rightly be put out by this. We need to get to where we implement a strategy of having strong primary care teams and a much stronger community health system where people can remain in their location for as long as possible.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach is cutting the home help hours by 5 million

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Serious numbers left the health service of their own accord because of the redundancy package. I pay compliment to those who remain, who have changed rosters, moved location and travelled distances, worked longer hours and, with clinical and medical teams and nursing staff, have sat down to determine how to provide the best care for patients in the hospital given that they will not have the endless stream of money that people had assumed would be available. This is a challenging situation and those involved as patients have a right to expect the very best level of treatment. When we get the full implementation of the structure envisaged by the Minister for Health at the end of this period of Government, with universal health insurance, we will be in a position to have a really efficient, competent, professional, caring health service. I do not suggest that those who work in the service have any lack of a caring attitude but the pressure on space is always an issue. The Deputy is always aware of how there can be an increase because of flu or viruses. From time to time, hospital numbers can rise rapidly in a short time and that can put pressure points on the delivery of service.

With regard to the Cabinet sub-committee dealing with each of these entities, we have not met with the special delivery unit and had detailed discussions with it. Deputy Adams probably got more information directly from the special delivery unit and he probably had the right to ask any questions, as I am sure he did when he and other Deputies met with the special delivery unit last week.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I remind Deputies that this question is about the number of times the sub-committee met. We have spent 20 minutes on this group of questions and other Deputies in the Chamber have questions to ask. I ask Deputies to be conscious of time.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The Taoiseach will not be here next week.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Arising from the Taoiseach's response to my question, No. 4, on the Cabinet sub-committee on social policy, I am struck by the fact the committee has not met since the budget. Perhaps, if the committee had met during the budgetary time and after it, and had proofed the budget in terms of its impact on low income families, we might have had a different approach and a different outcome. What is the point in a carer's strategy if, for example, one of the decisions in the budget is to include carer's allowance as calculable income for the purposes of the family income supplement? In many families, the mothers are-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot stray into a different area of policy.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is to do with social protection, the role of the sub-committee and the fact that it has not met.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The question concerns the number of times the sub-committee has met.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Adams went on at liberty about other issues.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am trying to be fair and Deputy Martin also has a number of other questions.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will not detain the House too long.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot stray into policy on a question about the number of times the sub-committee met.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I was talking about the fact that the sub-committee had not met since the budget, which has all the signs of it. The carer's allowance of mothers who care for those with special needs was, for the first time, taken on board in terms of calculating entitlement to family income supplement. Families on the lowest income rung of the ladder were hit by as much as €100. How can any Cabinet sub-committee on social policy stand over that?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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What is Deputy Martin's question?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach referred to autism in his reply. Children with autism and their parents are being denied access to domiciliary care allowance.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot go into that, Deputy Martin.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The letters parents of children with autism are receiving is disgraceful. The letters refer to the children not needing additional care over and above their peers.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will Deputy Martin table a separate question?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is the most ridiculous, absurd and insulting reply from officials in the Department of Social Protection. Will the Taoiseach ensure the sub-committee meets more often, becomes more assertive in terms of proofing Government policy in so far as it has an impact on the lowest income earners in our society and those who need help and support? I mentioned two cases involving autistic children and domiciliary care allowance and, in terms of carers, the family income supplement, but there are many others. The DEIS issue should not have happened. It happened because the committee must have been asleep at the wheel in terms of watching these issues. The change in eligibility rules for women, for example, has hit women to the tune of €70 and €80 and the Taoiseach comes in here and makes the proud boast that social welfare payments were not hit. Many people were hit but he did it by stealth, and the devil was in the detail.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Taoiseach to keep to the question on the number of times the committee met.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have told the Deputy that the committee met three times. The reason the carers' strategy has been taken on by the Minister of State, Deputy Lynch, is that for years no Minister, Department or collection of Departments would deal with it. We are now dealing with it, and the Minister of State is putting together all of that strategy-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Carers were hit savagely in the budget.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----to have a carers strategy that will set out policy.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is no action.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Action is exactly the point because for donkey's years-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is no action. It is the opposite.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----nobody in this House bothered their barney to put together-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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You are wrong.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please, Deputy.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----the threads of a carers' strategy, and it is being dealt with now.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is not true.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I made the point to the Deputy that an extra €1 million is allocated for autistic children this year, again next year and the year after that. Neither the Deputy nor I decides on the basis of an analysis of an application for domiciliary care allowance, nor am I qualified to give a verdict in regard to those issues.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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With the greatest respect to the Taoiseach, there is a pattern, and many professional opinions have been given.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy would like me to sit in the Taoiseach's Department all day every day meeting with Cabinet sub-committees-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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No.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----and not deal with the essence of politics, which is about people.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is not even meeting.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We have, Deputy. We try to deal with these meetings as reasonably as possible, give them a programme of work to do and ask them to report progress. I hope they will do that.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It has not met since the budget.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will report back to the Deputy on 24 May.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Will the Taoiseach indicate if there is joined-up thinking between Cabinet sub-committees such as the Cabinet Committee on Social Protection and the Cabinet sub-committee on jobs, the body which his Government has given priority to create jobs? I ask that question because it has become clear that many of the measures introduced in the budget will act to drive loan parents in particular out of-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, Deputy, that is an entirely separate issue.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is about how these two committees connect.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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No, it is not.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is, honestly.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is not, honestly. It is entirely separate.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Many of the measures will drive loan parents out of work-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy please resume his seat?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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-----particularly because lone parents payments will be withdrawn after a child has reached the age of seven. Loan parents are asking a simple question.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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That has nothing to do with the question.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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If the Government wants them to work, who is supposed to look after the children-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Put down a parliamentary question on the issue and we will debate it.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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-----after the age of seven? Has that issue been discussed at the Cabinet sub-committee?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy cannot ask what was discussed at the Cabinet. I am moving on to Question No. 5.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I can ask, a Cheann Comhairle.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We have spent 27 minutes on four questions-----

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Others have asked it, and they got an answer.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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-----of the same ilk as to the number of times sub-committees met.