Dominic Hannigan (Meath East, Labour)
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I would like to share time with Deputies Paschal Donohoe and Arthur Spring.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Dominic Hannigan (Meath East, Labour)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak about the decision to put the fiscal compact to the people. When I was elected Chairman of the Joint Committee on European Affairs, I knew that a great deal of work would have to be done. The joint committee meets each week to debate how European decisions will affect Ireland. The committee has led the debate on many European issues. It has been debating the fiscal compact since it was agreed in January. We have had a number of meetings with various economists, including Dr. Alan Ahearne of NUIG, Professor Karl Whelan of UCD and Mr. Paul Sweeney of ICTU, at which we have discussed the impact of the fiscal compact treaty on our economy. We have also met the Minister of State at the German Federal Foreign Office, who spoke with the committee about Ireland's recovery and the impact the fiscal compact will have on the eurozone. Ambassadors from Spain, Germany and France will attend tomorrow's meeting of the joint committee to talk about the fiscal compact and the European economic situation. I do not doubt that it will be a frank and robust debate.

As we want the debate on the compact to be inclusive, we have invited members of the public to make submissions on it to the committee. The more engagement we have with the public on this issue, the better. A national debate is welcome and will help the eventual outcome of the vote. In my view, the Irish people have nothing to fear from this treaty. The fiscal compact is largely a restatement of current agreements - there is little new in it. If we reject this treaty, it will not mean that we reject any of the measures in the six pack. They would still remain. The treaty restates our commitment to ensuring the euro is underpinned with a stable and secure governance mechanism. This stability will lead to greater investment, more consumer confidence, higher levels of funding for our businesses, increased growth and more jobs for our people.

I listened to other Deputies talking about how small countries like Ireland will suffer if we break the rules. They suggested that under reverse qualified majority voting, we will have to pay fines whereas larger countries like France and Germany will not have to do so. That is not true. I encourage all Deputies to examine reverse qualified majority voting. It will be very difficult for France, Germany or any other country, regardless of its size, to overturn a decision. The purpose of this treaty is to ensure we all play by the rules and, in the process, maintain a stable and secure currency. Opponents of the fiscal compact have argued that if it is introduced, Europe will face constant austerity. This is not the case. Under the six pack agreement, we will need to reduce the debt to GDP ratio to 60%. We will have to do this regardless of whether the treaty is voted through. The ratio can be reduced in many ways. Austerity is not a foregone conclusion. The debt to GDP ratio can be reduced by means of growth - by making the pie larger. In 1991, our debt to GDP ratio was 95% but by 1999, it had reduced to 35%. That was not achieved by cutting, but by making sure the Irish economy grew. That is what we need to do again.

We need to see growth in the Irish economy. We saw growth of almost 1% last year. That needs to continue. We launched the action plan for jobs last week. We hope this will lead to a structural change in how we do business. We hope it will make it easier to start new businesses, to build businesses and to run businesses. Our economy should grow further as a result of that. I spent the last two days in Brussels at a meeting with other parliamentarians and with various EU Commissioners. The mood across Europe is for greater efforts to be made to generate growth, more work to be done on economic drivers, more focus to be given to youth unemployment and more support to be given to new businesses. We need to push this agenda. We need fiscal responsibility. We need to take actions to stabilise our currency. Measures such as the fiscal compact will make it easier to ensure economic growth takes place. I look forward to the debate in Ireland over the coming months. I look forward to engaging with the public on this crucial issue.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputies Hannigan and Spring for allowing me to contribute to this debate. I would like to focus on two matters, the first of which relates to what this fiscal compact is for. I hope the fiscal compact will be in place in the future to make sure the mistakes of the past are not repeated. It will help to get Ireland to a place where it is able to borrow on the financial markets with the support of the European Union as a backstop. It is very straightforward. It will bring more credibility to the efforts of a small, highly open and, unfortunately, highly indebted economy to borrow what it needs in the future.

Opponents of the fiscal compact will have their opportunity to outline their case but they need to answer the simple question. Ireland outside the fiscal compact will probably be unable to borrow from financial markets at a rate it can afford and we will not have access to any future bailout mechanism. How will Ireland be able to source money to deliver the borrowings to fund our schools, hospitals and to help fund our social welfare payments? Anyone advocating a "No" vote needs to answer the question of where will the money come from. Already I hear people who advocate the course of action that Ireland should vote "No" and take the consequences; that we should leave the consequences up to the Commissions to determine. This might be a good move in a game of poker or in a game of cards but one does not gamble with the welfare of a nation, with the health, well-being and the economic security of an entire State. This is not making a decision on behalf of people, rather it is a reckless gamble which no country should be exposed to, least of all one which has already gone through this convulsion of an economic depression over the past number of years.

We are going to have to make efforts to bring down our levels of debt and our deficit levels, to encourage confidence in our economy so that it can stabilise and grow again in the future. We will have to take those steps and it will be easier to do within the architecture of this treaty rather than from the outside.

Arthur Spring (Kerry North-West Limerick, Labour)
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I thank Deputy Hannigan for sharing his time with me. I agree with my Government colleagues who have spoken. It must be acknowledged that we are on the way back and we have the choice to get off at the next floor or not. The welfare of the nation is at stake and I would prefer to have some certainty in this regard. Those 447,000 unemployed people would also like to see some growth, some certainty and a future for our country. This is the first time in the history of the State that the IMF is in the country. The gravity of the situation has been lost at times by some politicians and journalists and some sections of the public. This is an opportunity for us to explain the situation and what it means to be left outside in the cold on our own as a peripheral country in Europe.

The people of Ireland will make the ultimate judgment on whether we should join in this fiscal policy. We have a currency but we do not have a fiscal unity and this was the reason I stated publicly before the event that Ireland should never have joined the eurozone. However, we are inside the eurozone now and we have to live with the situation as we find it.

I refer to some outstanding journalism written in the past few days by Arthur Beesley and Dan O'Brien in TheIrish Times. They have written responsible articles about the impact of a "No" vote and the certainty associated with a "Yes" vote. The headline over Arthur Beesley's report states: "His vote may decide if Ireland survives storm or faces catastrophe." It is incumbent upon us as politicians to make an effort not to persuade people to do anything rather to explain the information and to ensure that misinformation does not influence how people cast their vote. I am delighted to note that Fianna Fáil has also supported this fiscal treaty as being the correct option.

Like Deputy Hannigan, I have the proud privilege of being an ambassador for this Government in that I am a member of the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly. Last week in Vienna, at an economic forum I was given the impression that people were very happy with Ireland's response but they also acknowledged the need for more action to be taken. This treaty is one further step towards resolving the woes of our Continent and our currency but at that forum, every parliamentarian from around Europe and further afield, acknowledged that growth is the way forward. In my view, Ireland will get there if we adopt the right corrective measures and if there is certainty about the future of the currency. We will get people back to work. I advise the opponents of the treaty that the welfare of this country should not be jeopardised for political gain if this is the reason for their opposition. I ask them to hold off until the next election.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Since the agreement of the fiscal compact treaty, Fianna Fáil has consistently called for a referendum to be held. Now that it is to be held, we will vote in favour of the treaty as a step towards facing up to the fundamental challenge facing the eurozone. However, we believe that it does not go far enough and that the ECB's role needs to be reformed substantially, fiscal union established and pan-European banking regulation set out. The fundamental design flaws of the euro need to be addressed in order to get Europe's economy moving again. Friday's European summit meeting has dramatically changed in tone with the announcement yesterday in the House of an Irish referendum. I welcome the fact the announcement was made in this House rather than elsewhere. No doubt, a ripple of shock spread through Government buildings in Merrion Street and in the Berlaymont building in Brussels when despite the Government's best efforts, the Attorney General recommended a referendum. This need not have been the case as the Government should not fear making a fair and open argument and putting a critical decision to the Irish people. This is of such a critical nature that it is right and fitting that the Irish people be given an opportunity to address it.

The Government has committed significant diplomatic and political energy in pursuing the avoidance of a referendum. It is automatically on the back foot going before the people as it was seen as running away from a vote on the issue. Its relations with our EU partners, which it emphasised was being rebuilt, have taken a blow after its futile efforts in negotiating a treaty on the basis of avoiding a referendum.

The original treaty wording that balanced budget laws need to be "constitutional or equivalent" was been replaced with "preferably constitutional". This phrase was included for a purpose and it was part of the negotiation process in a move to avoid an Irish referendum, despite German anxiety about weakening the treaty. Indeed, this was confirmed by Germany's Minister for European Affairs, Michael Link, who stated that European Union negotiators sought to design the eurozone fiscal compact in such a way as to avoid a referendum in Ireland. He specifically said: "We are trying to design everything that is on the table in a way which would be okay in the eyes of the Attorney General and the Irish Constitution so that no referendum is needed." The Government has been at pains to point to something different with regard to comments made but it is clear from Mr. Link's comments this was not the case.

Fianna Fáil has consistently called for a referendum to be held on this critical issue. When the outline of the fiscal compact treaty was hammered out in December 2011, we called for a referendum to ensure that the steps taken by the EU to move forward should enjoy popular democratic legitimacy. Short-term gains in avoiding awkward referendums and dodging fundamental issues are always outweighed by the costs of undermining the legitimacy of the European project. This has been illustrated in the past. In the long term, the European Union can only flourish with the active engagement and support of its citizens.

Efforts by the Government to avoid a referendum and the sentiments expressed by Cabinet Ministers that referendums by their nature are not "very democratic" are not constructive. Those comments should not be made and have no place in this debate. Likewise, European leaders must address the democratic deficit that is steadily eroding the entire European project. This referendum should be engaged with in a constructive and open manner. Information must be easily accessible and demagoguery and crude populism avoided. Open, honest debate on the future direction of the Union should always be at the heart of the major decisions of the EU.

The euro was established in the Maastricht treaty of 1992 as an integral facet of a new Europe after the reunification of Germany and the collapse of the Soviet Bloc. However, it suffered from fundamental design flaws that remain to be addressed. Deputy Spring has alluded to these flaws. The currency enjoyed an initial period of tranquility. Member states coalesced around German bond levels and this obscured the underlying difficulties of the currency. However, the financial crisis has ruthlessly shown up those structural problems. This treaty is a step towards tackling those profound problems. In the view of Fianna Fáil, the main problems with the euro have been so badly exposed over the past four years. I refer to the limited mandate of the European Central Bank; the lack of uniform financial regulation, including a pan-eurozone bank resolution regime; and the lack of a fiscal union, in particular, one which involves transfers between states and eurobonds.

This treaty is a bridge towards a framework of polices and infrastructural changes that will tackle these problems. In essence, it takes the previously existing rules set out in the 1996 Stability and Growth Pact and ramps them up with stricter enforcement rules. These rules have already been reInforced by the economic governance six pack in December 2011. The fiscal compact aims to limit the opportunity for financial imprudence by member states which will spill over into other member states and damage the currency, which is really the root of the current crisis. It establishes a framework that will allow for a more expanded and effective EU response to the euro crisis.

More sweeping and decisive action is required to fundamentally address the euro zone crisis and to generate a stable fiscal and monetary space for the economy to grow and jobs to flourish. We argue that the following steps must ultimately be taken. Fiscal union with euro bonds that pool sovereign debt will strengthen all member states' economic performance. Utilising fiscal transfers and euro bonds to invest in infrastructure and launch strong counter cyclical economic policies will be crucial to preventing future recessions on the scale of this one. The ECB's mandate needs to be reformed to a model similar to the US Federal Reserve where the ECB can expand monetary policy by buying debt from member states. The strong action taken by the ECB on the secondary bond market helped stave off the threat to Spain and Italy.

Recent liquidity measures for the banking system through three year loans have also prevented the disastrous, complete freezing of the banking system. Strong unified financial regulation across the Union, reflecting the reality of international finance under the remit of the ECB, will ensure that the banking crisis that we have endured does not happen again in the future. Regulation across Europe is a far more effective mechanism to prevent the disastrous banking decisions that have fuelled boom and bust economics.

This treaty is a building block towards putting in place the institutional framework and policies that are necessary in addressing the euro zone crisis. It is a single block in what needs to be a far greater and more ambitious programme of change. Failing to take these steps will haunt the EU as it continues to lurch from crisis to crisis with the fundamental problems of the euro continuing to plague the Union.

There are legitimate concerns about the treaty. I have expressed our view that it does not do enough and can only be seen as a step towards greater action in the future to tackle the euro crisis that is strangling economic growth, sapping business confidence and, ultimately, undermining jobs in Ireland. Economists have also concurred with this opinion and others have stated that not enough is being done to promote investment. These are fair and valid opinions that deserve to be heard and the people can weigh them up when they cast their vote in the coming months.

However, as others have said, campaigns of misinformation and dishonesty do not have a role to play. Conspiracy theories about EU plots with Goldman Sachs, which certain elements have put out, should have no place in the debate about the treaty. This is a pivotal moment for Ireland and its role at the heart of the European project. A campaign twisted by fear mongering, crude populism or outright misinformation has no place in public discourse. The citizens of Ireland, who rightly have the choice to make this decision despite the Government's best efforts to the contrary, deserve and demand open honest debate to thrash out the issues at hand.

As I said, Fianna Fáil believes in the European project. It guided Ireland into the then EEC and has always led the way in advancing our progress in Europe. The people know the immense benefits of being part of the European community of 27 member states and more than 500 million people.

The choice before the people is one to stay at the heart of a Union which has driven on social and economic advancement on this island. Fianna Fáil will fight to secure that place at the heart of Europe and looks forward to bringing that case to the only people who should ever decide on these critical issues, the citizens of Ireland.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Breen who is sharing time with Deputy Durkan.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak in this very important debate. Like my colleague, Deputy Dooley, I welcome the fact this announcement was made in the Dáil Chamber. For the first time, I felt the Dáil was relevant because in previous years, announcements were made outside the Dáil. I commend the Government which got the information at 12 p.m. and made the announcement in the Dáil at 3 p.m. I also welcome the fact the Leader of the Opposition, Deputy Martin, immediately supported the Government's move to hold a referendum. That is important and is a good start to the campaign.

Over the past number of years, there has been too much negativity about referenda and, unfortunately, the negativity has started, in particular from Sinn Féin which said there were alternatives. It is easy to stand for everything but, in the end, to stand for nothing. Will Sinn Féin clarify the other options available, in particular given that it said the IMF would bail us out completely? It is extremely important the campaign is positive, whether one is voting "Yes" or "No", and the majority of people and parties support this referendum.

From the Government's point of view, the fact we are having a referendum means the people will have an opportunity to decide on their future involvement in the European Union, which is extremely important. It is also important the public is well informed. The Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Gilmore, and the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Creighton, will ensure the public is well informed in their campaign.

Deputy Dooley referred to the fact that referenda sometimes get sidelined. It will get sidelined if we are not positive and if the proper message is not sent. Experience has shown that debates are turned into anything but what referenda are about. However, it is far too important on this occasion to talk about other issues because the future of Ireland is at stake.

I concur with the Taoiseach and the Minister of State, Deputy Creighton, that ratifying this treaty is in the national interest and that non-ratification would send out a very bad message from Ireland. As Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, I meet members of the diplomatic corps on a weekly basis. One of the things they highlight to me, whether formally or informally, is how Ireland has measured up, unlike other European countries. Our Ministers have always said we are not like Italy or Greece and that we have met our targets. That is paying off for us. Over the past 12 months, this Government has brought confidence to the country and that confidence is paying off for us in regard to foreign direct investment. Last year, we created 16,000 jobs, which is important.

Sending a positive message is important and, as I said, the diplomatic corps looks on Ireland as a country which has done extremely well in the midst of an economic recession in Europe. For that reason, it is important we send a positive message and deal with the issues. We have met our targets. Ireland's recovery is very much linked to the eurozone and growth is extremely important because it brings jobs and that is what the economy is all about. Ireland's exports are doing extremely well. There was modest growth in exports of 3.6% last year, which is real progress. We must be competitive.

The fact this referendum will take place in the near future will send a positive message. I know the people will vote "Yes" because they know their future lies in Europe. Sending a positive message to our partners in Europe will certainly make Ireland a very favourable place for investment in the future.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank my colleague, Deputy Breen, for sharing time in this most important debate. Like other speakers, I compliment the Attorney General and the Government on reaching a clear decision without equivocation and deciding to hold a referendum not because a referendum is absolutely necessary, but because if there was even the slightest possibility of somebody bringing a constitutional challenge to the Supreme Court between now and the passing of legislation, it would be a disaster. I compliment all concerned as it is the correct way to go.

It also gives an opportunity to the people to recognise the progress over the past 11 months as a result of the work the Government has done. It may not be commonly known, and it certainly will not be promoted on the opposition benches, but €18.4 billion has been shaved off the indebtedness of this country in the past 11 months by way of negotiation and the tactics employed by the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, the Minister for Finance and various other Ministers. That is an amazing achievement in a very short space of time.

All the people who contacted my constituency office in the past 24 hours since this announcement have said they totally support the concept of holding a referendum and they will participate positively in the debate.

It also gives an opportunity to the negative people, the no-pay brigade, who run around telling everyone not to pay or comply because they do not have to and because it is an attack on our sovereignty. The only attack on our sovereignty is that we have overspent. Like many other European countries, we have got into debt. We have two options: either we work our way out of it or we fall down and say we are sorry but we cannot pay. I challenge any Member to tell me how a household or a company that has overspent and overborrowed can go into a financial institution, apologise for overspending and say that while it does not intend to repay the debt, it needs money to work in the future. I am not an economist and it is a long time since I was in business but if people can find an institution willing to lend money in those circumstances, we should all know about it.

The stability pact is something required of all European countries so that no one repeats the breaches of the Stability and Growth Pact, as some countries did to their advantage at particular times. No European country can go there again. Much hate has been generated towards the German people, Ministers and Government over the past 12 months. There has been finger-pointing. Whether we like it, the German people made many sacrifices over the past ten or 15 years. They took a considerable drop in standards of living and quality of life in order to achieve what they set out to do. It is true that they broke the Stability and Growth Pact, as did France and other countries, but they took a decrease in quality of life and standards of living. We took the opposite choice. It is great to see that the Irish people recognise and stand behind the Government in attempting to turn around the ship. That will be rewarded.

Something was said about the Government not doing enough to encourage investment. I hear chatter from the opposite side about stimulus packages. Will we ever learn one thing? We cannot have a stimulus package or economic expansion of any shape or form unless it is based on sound economic fundamentals. There were two oil-based recessions in the 1970s and there was a famous stimulus package here after one of them. The coalition Government at the time had put in place constructive measures to work our way out of it. In the general election campaign, a stimulus package was presented to the people. The theory was that putting more money in people's pockets, abolishing rates and reducing car tax would ensure the consumer had more money to spend. Within 18 months, the country was broke. We cannot afford a repetition of that nonsense. The campaign pursued by the Government, although not easy, is the correct one. It is a challenge for the country to fulfil. We can act as an inspiration not only to ourselves, but to other people in Europe similarly affected.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the announcement yesterday of a referendum. It needed to be put to the people and, thankfully, the Attorney General has agreed. Deputy Breen referred to having an honest debate. We should start by saying that the Government did everything in its power to ensure there would not be a referendum on the issue. The Tánaiste said at a recent committee meeting that people were working to ensure this would not go to a referendum and reports from Europe suggested the same. The negotiating position of the Government on this makes it clear that the last thing it wanted was a referendum. It was no surprise to see the expression on their faces yesterday. Like the previous speaker, I welcome the fact that the announcement was made in the Chamber. That is the right way to do business. The fact that the Opposition got eight minutes notice is irrelevant; at least the announcement was made in the Chamber. Maybe there is a learning curve for the Government and next time we will receive more notice.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Does Deputy O'Brien agree all Members are equal and should be told at the same time?

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do. All Members are equal and perhaps the Minister and his Government backbenchers should remember that when heckling Sinn Féin across the floor. We are all equal, our opinions are valid and we all have the right to articulate opinions here. The Minister may not agree with them, but we have the right. I do not agree with the Minister's opinions, but I do not heckle him when he is speaking.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Hear, hear.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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There was discomfort on faces when the announcement was made because people realised that we all have to campaign on the treaty, put the issues to the people and give the people their say. I found it ironic that the Minister for Justice and Equality said that, if needs be, there would be a second referendum. That rhetoric does not help the debate.

Despite the gloomy faces in this Chamber, I am sure there were happy faces across Europe because, finally, the people suffering under austerity have gleaned a glimmer of hope that at least one country will have a real debate on the issue and one nation will give its people the opportunity to make an informed decision. This is not an EU treaty or an agreement that all 27 member states hammered out as was the case previously. It is a mishmash of legal problems trying to get agreement across Europe. The Minister knows that one of the first rules of treaty making is to try to get everyone to agree. That philosophy was thrown out the window for the sake of convenience. Thankfully, the Attorney General has seen through that and we will have a referendum. We should not be surprised that the Government tried to avoid a referendum because the people were the last element the drafters of the treaty had in mind. The treaty has no impact analysis on how it will affect ordinary citizens, those looking for jobs or those forced to emigrate. This is all about gamblers, speculators and bankers because they are the ones the treaty is designed to protect and keep in jobs. There must be a real, honest debate.

We have seen how Europe reacts to countries attempting to put proposals to the people. We can look at Greece, when there was a quick row back at the thought of a referendum. It was quickly slapped down and that is not what EU democracy is about. It is clear to my party and those opposed to the treaty that the targets in the treaty are unattainable in the specified timeframe. It does not make sense. It will tie us into austerity for years and it is not scaremongering to say so. That is the way we see it. Even the IMF warned about austerity. We cannot just have austerity, we have to have stimulus and investment.

This is a bad deal for Ireland. It is short-sighted and I do not see the logic behind the treaty. I have to ask why we are being asked to sign up to it. It is not in the interest of the Irish people. We heard commentators say yesterday and today that we have to have a real debate and cannot scaremonger or get sidetracked with other issues, such as septic tanks, the household charge and cuts to schools. The reality is this is an austerity treaty.

I can understand why the Government does not want to want this debate to involve household charges, cuts, extra taxes, cuts to rural schools and septic tank charges. The reality is that because the treaty is about austerity, all of these issues are the real and tangible effects of austerity. They are linked to the treaty and should form part of the debate. Anyone who is arguing in favour of the treaty is arguing for austerity. One may disagree with my opinion but the facts will bear me out.

I was amused to hear Deputy Dooley say we need to ensure the debate is about the real issues and that we do not engage in scaremongering. He is from a party which, during the debate on the Lisbon treaty, along with the Labour Party and Fine Gael, told people if they did not vote in favour of the Lisbon treaty no jobs would come.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I heard about European conscription.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Battle groups.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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We have battle groups. Is it any wonder people will be cynical when the three main parties have continued to rip people off, stick their hands into the pockets of ordinary householders and take every last penny to pay bankers and speculators? Is it any wonder they will have no faith in the message being put forward? I am quite confident that if this issue is debated on its merits people will reject it.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are four speakers and 16 minutes remain for the debate. Each speaker can have four minutes. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak. This is an important debate. As we enter our second year as elected representatives, it is particularly important that we have a chance to speak on what is a fundamental debate on a referendum. This debate goes to the nub of all political issues in that our primary function in this House is to raise and monitor taxes to pay for all the public services we approve under Vote to provide for all of our citizens.

In doing that we must be realistic. The fiscal compact sets out a framework as to how we plan our financial affairs as a nation and member of the European Community and common currency. Some, like the previous speaker, Deputy O'Brien, have called it an austerity referendum. In reality, it would be better to call it a reality treaty. He referred to stimulus and investment. One can only provide them in an environment where those people that will invest can achieve certainty and stability. That is what the fiscal treaty is all about and why I am very pleased to support the referendum.

In doing that we must be realistic and this fiscal pact sets out a framework as to how we plan our financial affairs as a nation, a member of the European community and as members of a common currency. Some, like the previous speaker, Deputy O'Brien, have caused it an austerity referendum. In reality, it would be better to call it a reality treaty. He referred to stimulus and investment. One can only provide them in an environment where those people that will invest can achieve certainty and stability. That is what the fiscal treaty is all about and why I am very pleased to support the referendum.

It is only right that we have a constitutional referendum on adopting this reality pact. In doing so, we are writing the rules which can provide a framework for our monetary affairs now and, more important, in the future. In simple terms, we cannot borrow money if we cannot pay it back and we are currently living way beyond our means. The situation we have inherited is, according to the 2012 Estimates, that we as a Parliament on behalf of the Irish people will spend €55.75 billion or €12,192 for every man, woman and child in the country. The real problem is that we are only raising €38.08 billion or €8,312 for every man, woman and child in Ireland, in taxes and other income. We are overspending by €3,879 for every single person in the country.

I know Members opposite will oppose every effort to increase revenue by a euro or cent or by cutting expenditure. They do not want to pay back one red cent. Regrettably, those policies and ideology are as bankrupt and defunct as this country. We have and need a plan to reform our country's financial affairs and I look forward to some Deputies accepting this reality so they can reform their ideology and policies.

After a year in the House it is important to reflect on how every taxpayer sees his or her money being spent. The money spent on every man, woman and child in the country can be divided in broad terms. It comprises: €4,485 on social welfare; €3,065 on the health service; €1,971 on education; and just over €500 on the provision of justice system. We take in per person: €3,294 in income tax; €2,130 in VAT; just over €1,000 in excise duties; and €305 in stamp duties. That is the current situation and it is not good.

I want to see a better way of planning our nation's finances so that my children and grandchildren do not have to face this situation again in 20 years' time. By agreeing to the treaty we are ensuring stability, not just for our citizens, but to increase investment and make a better way of life for our country.

Any previous Administration could have made mistakes. There was a series of up to 20 projects, such as Punchestown, the Media Lab, the Cork courthouse, e-voting, marine projects in Kerry, Galway and Sligo, accommodation for asylum seekers, PPARS, residential abuse in institutions, overruns, medical card for the over-70s miscalculations, Kilkenny flood relief, east and west toll link overruns, Stadium Campus Ireland or the Bertie bowl, the new passport system overrun, the LUAS overrun, the Dublin Port tunnel overrun and the Thornton Hall prison site debacle.

Such projects amounted to €7.3 billion of mismanagement and waste over a period of ten years. If the Deputy wants to vote for that and continue to vote for the possibility of it happening again, he should by all means reject the treaty. However, we are in a different time and need a different reality. Is there any better reason to vote for a reality treaty?

Dara Murphy (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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My Opposition colleague from the north side of Cork City spoke about this being a debate on ordinary Irish citizens, some of our people emigrating and the gamblers, speculators and profligate Governments we have had in the past. I agree with him. This is a treaty that will protect Irish citizens. It will build a country that will allow Irish people to come back from abroad and find jobs, and stop and prevent the type of government that has brought this country to where it is now and the speculation, abuse and poor banking we had in the past.

The austerity package we are currently under will remain in place no matter how people vote. I heard a person on the radio this morning talking about the household charge. That will not be affected by the referendum or how people vote. This is a package for the future of our country. It is a treaty which is not based on austerity but stability. It is about learning the lessons from the mistakes that not only we in the Republic of Ireland but many countries in Europe and around the world have made in the past number of years.

We have a responsibility to play our part. There is also an opportunity for us as a people to re-engage with the debate on the periphery of what it means to our country to be a member and partner of the European project and vision. Ireland and Europe are not separate entities. Ireland is part of and at the heart of Europe Europe has been exceptionally good to Ireland. Many of the billions of euro that enter Ireland each year come from our European colleagues. We will have an opportunity to put in place measures that will ensure individual nations, including Ireland and perhaps others in future, will not be able to put a project involving hundreds of millions of people, a Continent, at risk through poor economic management.

The referendum is very straightforward. I accept that the last two referenda on treaties were extremely complicated. While issues were raised that should not have been raised, the complexity of the treaties gave rise to questions on corporation tax and neutrality. Amendments were made to the second Lisbon treaty in this regard. The treaty before us is no such treaty. It is extremely straightforward and there are extremely clear and identifiable targets which countries such as Ireland must work towards.

It has been suggested that if every country in Europe were to have a referendum, they would all vote against the treaty. We must have regard for the fact that 16 of the 17 eurozone governments have all agreed, through their own legal frameworks, to put the treaty in place. It is extremely misleading to suggest that people in other countries, whose governments have signed up to the treaty on their behalf, would vote in a different fashion. This is a chance for Ireland to return to where it once was, a country that shows true leadership to the people of the Continent and which has a positive and strong economic outlook. We will be watched but it will not be a question of how others perceive us, nor will it be a question of our being perceived as the good boys and girls of Europe; it is ultimately for us to be selfish about our economic future and that of our children. This is why we must vote "Yes"; it is not for anybody on the mainland of Europe.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for the opportunity to speak on this urgent debate on the European fiscal compact treaty. It is important to have a debate on it and on the facts. I am entering the debate with an open mind and will listen to all sides, after which I will make an informed decision on the facts and what I believe is in the best interest of the people of Ireland. I urge all Deputies to do so.

When one considers the details of the treaty, one will see the new fiscal compact imposes fines and will have repercussions for countries that break the agreement. This is a new departure. The treaty does not affect our current bailout arrangement and nothing will be changed by accepting or rejecting the deal. The treaty covers all future deals. If Ireland does not sign up to the deal, it cannot apply for a second bailout at any stage. Ireland may have other options, such as arranging unilateral loans from the United Kingdom or other countries and the IMF. However, people understand that this could be messy. Each country would impose its own conditions on any loan.

The treaty gives strong powers of oversight to the European Union. It removes the Dáil as being the final arbiter of budgetary policy. As such, the treaty signs away Irish sovereignty and freedom and admits there are powers above the Irish people that can determine what happens. These are concerns the people will raise and I would like to hear the Minister's response.

Governments will no longer have a free reign on wide economic policy and when to spend to stimulate the economy. The treaty marks the first genuine step towards a federal state, in which national governments are subservient to the European Commission or European Central Bank.

Owing to the current world crisis, Germany is the only country in a strong negotiating position, and this moves the entire European Union into the German model for the future. Corporation taxes will be placed on the agenda and they will come under threat. We should deal with this in a sensible way. The treaty opens the door for the European Union to decide exactly how money is spent in Ireland. The current troika arrangements may become a standard in the future.

The treaty carries no easing of the debt burden for Ireland and commits it to a very large task in order to repay. In such circumstances, it seems both unreasonable and unfair, and the burden will cripple Ireland as an entity, making it no more than a footnote to the European Union. These concerns are important and I would like them to be addressed in the debate.

Deputy Durkan raised major concerns over stimulus packages. Everybody wants to balance the books, stay within budget and sort out the economic crisis. Nobody differs on that but some of us in the Opposition benches see the way forward as being able to propose constructive policies on trying to stimulate the economy and generate growth.

The fiscal compact treaty is designed to improve the strength of the European Union in dealing with the financial crisis. It strengthens the so-called bailout arrangements and imposes new conditions for countries' participation. In short, it makes a stronger fund available to countries that need it. In return, they must commit to tighter oversight by the European Union. Since the Maastricht treaty, the European Union has had oversight powers. Guidelines were set out for all countries as regards borrowing and spending.

I have an open mind on the issue. I will listen to all sides and then make a decision.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak on this issue. I am delighted there is a referendum because the people who voted for a new Government a year ago based on promised change got no change. There was just a change of seating arrangements in the House. The people are anxious to have their say on the referendum and are entitled to it. I have an open mind on this matter and will weigh up the arguments very carefully.

I want the Taoiseach to put on the green jersey this time and state when in mainland Europe, where he is going this Friday, that we have a real problem. Since we must pass the referendum, he should demand that we be treated fairly and as equal partners. He should demand that we not be fleeced with high interest rates. We are being charged up to 6% in interest on the EU-IMF bailout loan. I voted against this, against my own party, at the time because it was not a bailout; it was a clean-out. The European Central Bank is giving banks money today at a rate of 1% while Ireland is paying at a rate 6%. Any economist or layman will say that is not fair. Money is being given to the banks that caused the problem and austerity measures must be imposed here and elsewhere in Europe to pay back the funds. The banks caused the failure. Hey presto, what happened this morning? A sum of up to €800 million was paid. There is no fair play. The Taoiseach must achieve some recognition for the plight of our people. He needs to have the debt halved. As I have always said, we owe only half of it because the European banks recklessly lent money to Irish banks. We are on our knees trying to pay it back.

We must extend the date of repayment over 30 years. The Germans finished paying money owed since the last war only quite recently. We must be realistic and apply the same standards that were applied to Germany when it got into huge debt. We must achieve fair play and be seen to do so. The people of Ireland will vote in favour of the treaty if they secure some recognition for their plight.

Deputy Durkan stated we have shaved €18.4 billion from our indebtedness. I do not know where he got that figure. I commend the Government on achieving some writing down of interest - I give credit where credit is due - but we now need a major carrot. I am not saying we are blackguarding or threatening; we need to be treated with respect and dignity. We should not be kowtowing to the bully boys, Dr. Angela Merkel or the rest of the gang in Europe. We just require fair play and to be respected as an equal.

Previous treaties have had these concepts written into them and they have all been flouted. I know in my heart that people will not vote for this treaty unless they see the debt is dealt with and that there will be stimulus packages that will get the country moving again. Austerity is not working. This morning on the Order of Business, we heard no business is being transacted because people do not have money or confidence. Above all, there is no fair play. I urge the Taoiseach to travel to Europe to tell his colleagues it is now time to step up to the plate. There is no point in his getting pats on the back, the back of the head or the neck. We want our people to be able to vote for the treaty if our European colleagues guarantee they will treat us fairly and respectfully, and allow us breathing space to pay the debts we owe, not those we are perceived to owe and which are crippling us. We are a fair people and have been good Europeans, but we are being blackguarded here. The first bailout was a clean-out, but we must get justice. If we do not, this will be going down the swanny.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I welcome the many contributions that have been made by Deputies to today's debate. The number of interventions, and their quality, is a testament to the importance that Members of the House rightly attach to this new treaty on stability, co-ordination and governance in the Economic and Monetary Union.

The Houses of the Oireachtas have been engaged in a lengthy and detailed debate on the merits of this treaty for some months now and particularly since the beginning of December 2011, when it was first mooted. The Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Minister of State for European affairs have been very active in engaging with the realities of the treaty in this House, in the Seanad and at the Joint Committee on European Affairs. The Government welcomes the initiative taken by the committee to begin a process of public debate about the treaty. To this end, it has already invited submissions from members of the public, as well as organisations, on the treaty and its detailed implications for every citizen. This was a prescient and timely initiative on the part of the joint committee. Clearly, the level of engagement with this treaty, on all our parts, will now have to be stepped up. All Members of this House have an obligation make themselves conversant with the detailed implications of the treaty and to engage with the electorate.

In deciding yesterday to call a referendum on the new treaty, the Government has taken the first step in opening a genuine national debate directly with the people on its merits and implications for Ireland now and in the future. An informed, calm and respectful debate on the new treaty is what is needed. We need to engage vigorously with the public. I hope and believe that those efforts will be led by Members of the Oireachtas.

Nobody has argued for a moment that this treaty will be the answer to all the ills that have afflicted the eurozone; on its own, it will not be. The treaty is one important piece of the picture, but a critical one nonetheless. Restoring stability and confidence in the 17-member euro area and in our shared currency, has been a central focus of our efforts, nationally and at European level. This treaty will contribute to that end.

Europe has broken new ground, however, in responding to the economic and financial crisis by putting in place support funds, initially in the case of Greece on an ad hoc basis. That support was then institutionalised through the establishment of the European Financial Stability Facility, the EFSF - from which Ireland is currently drawing funds - and its proposed permanent successor, the European Stability Mechanism or ESM. Late last year, Europe also adopted a comprehensive package of six legislative measures designed to strengthen economic governance throughout Europe. These are now being supplemented by a further two measures, designed further to strengthen surveillance within the eurozone.

As a package, these measures represent an important development in our ability, within a common currency area, to genuinely hold each other to account. That is all it is. It is about implementing the arrangements that we all signed up to when the currency was first founded, so that we will live up to our word on these matters.

This crisis has brought into stark relief the fact that member states, sharing a common currency, are inextricably linked. We have seen the negative impacts that spill-over effects from what is happening in one member state can have on all the others. It is no longer enough to be doing the right thing. We must reassure ourselves and the financial markets that we in the eurozone are looking out for the currency union as a whole. Every member of the currency union must play a full part.

This new treaty will ensure that all contracting parties, whether big or small, from north or south, meet their obligations. This is very good for the euro area but it is also critically important for Ireland. We have nothing at all to fear from this treaty. Ireland is meeting its EU-IMF programme commitments on time and in full. The Government is determined that will remain the case. This is not an easy course but it is an essential one, and is already showing dividends. In 12 short months, sentiment towards Ireland has been turned around through the actions of this Government and the forbearance of the Irish people to difficult policies in difficult times.

Such a positive sentiment is not just desirable, it has concrete impacts on the real economy here and on the lives of every citizen. Sentiment matters in restoring investor confidence, which reduces the cost of our borrowing, and in attracting inward investment, which delivers growth and jobs throughout the country. It is clear, therefore, that these views of Ireland matter a lot.

An endorsement directly by the Irish people in the forthcoming referendum would be a powerful and eloquent statement from Ireland that we are serious about playing our full part in restoring confidence and stability to our common currency. Such a statement would be in the national interest of Ireland and all its citizens, as well as bring in the common interest of the euro area.

The Government looks forward to the national debate that lies ahead, in which we will play a full part. We will be fully engaged in it and hopefully the people will support the treaty when asked to do so.