Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Question 46: To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the total number of public servants expected to retire at the end of February; the measures Government Departments have put in place to protect frontline services when these public servants retire; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3940/12]

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Question 47: To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the contingency measures he has put in place to ensure front line services are not adversely affected by public sector workers who under the Croke Park Agreement extension retire before the end of February 2012 in order to have their pension and tax free lump sum calculated based on their 2009 salary. [4178/12]

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 46 and 47 together.

Latest figures from across the public service, excluding the health sector, indicate that approximately 4,000 are expected to retire in the first two months of 2012. In the health sector the data are based on the period September to February, with approximately 3,500 expected to retire in that timeframe. These figures are based on data reported by all public service employers about the numbers of retirement applications received. In some instances, staff will withdraw their application to retire owing to personal circumstances. There are also cases in which individuals who wish to retire have not given the full three months notice requested by the employer.

In the first instance, responsibility for operational planning in the context of reducing resources rests with the relevant public service body and its parent Department. Public service organisations must fully use all mechanisms set out in the public service reform plan for discharging work, including reorganisation and redeployment of staff. Only after this will the issue of recruitment for current or emerging business needs arise. Should a Department identify a potential exception to the moratorium on recruitment the sanction of my Department must then be sought. Exceptions to the moratorium may be granted on the following basis: where statutory posts must be filled for legal reasons; where failure to fill posts would result in a breach of EU or international regulations and impact upon exports, etc.; in safety-related posts where a failure to fill the post could leave the State open to potential legal liabilities or for security reasons; specialist and technical posts that ensure a continuity of operations such as legal officers, laboratory staff, maritime safety staff, etc.; and where continuity of front-line services must be ensured. In the case of the education and health sectors, a number of grades are exempt from the moratorium in order to ensure vital services are maintained.

Each sector in the public service has been establishing its own strategic workforce planning group to ensure sectoral employers develop plans to deal with the operational and strategic consequences arising from staffing reductions in the coming years. The sectoral groups are liaising with the central strategic workforce planning forum under my Department.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is the script the Minister brought to the Chamber approximately three months ago. No new information has been given today. That, in itself, is disappointing because the purpose of this last oral question session with the Minister before 29 February is to elicit information on what will happen when we know thousands will leave front-line services. The Minister has given no indications and has read out the list of statutory posts and the various obligations required to be met. He read it out ad nauseam during the course of last year. It would have been helpful if he had provided information relevant to what would happen in January and February. We are in a new year and expect new information.

I want to ask the Minister about front-line services. Essentially, I will concentrate on the nursing grade which was not referred to in the document. The Minister referred to grades in the health and education sectors but not nurses. I listened on the car radio today to a consultant from the Mid-Western Regional Hospital in Limerick who said that if nurses were not replaced, it might lead to fatalities in the maternity ward in the hospital. What further notice does the Minister require than a consultant saying this about a hospital?

The Minister referred to safety issues. What does he consider to be a safety issue? If HIQA was indicate to the HSE that it must have so many nursing staff in a particular ward, would that be considered to be a safety issue and thus allow one to breach the embargo forthwith?

The Minister set up the strategic workforce planning group and there is a planning forum under his Department, but he has not given any outcomes of what is happening in regard to these bodies. He has indicated today and previously that people were asked to give three months notice. He, everyone in the public service and I know that the majority are not required to give three months notice. All a public servant is required to do is to give one month's notice. People will give notice up to next week.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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That is true.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The figures outlined by the Minister are not correct. I accept some of those who indicated they would retire will not do so, but more may give notice next week. What will the Minister do, especially with nurses in front-line services?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I wish to be as helpful to the Deputy and the House as I possibly can. I will take the last question first.

The Deputy is correct. People may not have given notice yet because, by virtue of their contractual arrangements, they are only required to give four weeks notice. I asked, as I repeatedly said in the House last year, for three months notice in order that we could make advance plans. Most public servants do not want the situation to worsen as they leave and the vast majority with an intention of leaving have already given notice. I wish to be as helpful as I can such in giving a breakdown of the data available to date. However, the Deputy is correct; some people who have not yet given notice will apply to leave and I dare say there are many on the list who will withdraw their application. The figures, therefore, are tentative and the Deputy is correct to that extent.

I understand that in the education sector approximately 2,000 have indicated an interest in leaving, of whom 1,500 are teachers. In the Civil Service the number is approximately 794; in local authorities, 730; the Defence Forces, 192; and the Garda Síochána, 297, giving a total of 4,014. Between September and the end of February in the health service, the indicated number so far is in the order of 3,500.

I have indicated that I will be flexible in seeking to ensure that front line services are protected. I informed the committee when the Deputy was present last year that, although the full year retirements might amount to 9,000, we would indicate that up to 3,000 people could be recruited into the public service. We want to do that in a focused way that meets the criteria we have set and I would be happy to discuss the matter with the committee. We have strategic planning groups in each sector to ensure that front line services are protected as far as possible.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Despite the fact that the head count reduction is the Minister's main achievement, as he sees it, in public sector reform, it is a disorganised and potentially damaging approach towards reducing the gross pay bill. The Minister is on the record as saying that the full reduction he envisages will reduce the gross pay bill by €2.5 billion from 2008 levels.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Some €3.5 billion if one counts the levy.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Minister square this assertion with the fact that, in the next breath, he conceded that, while 9,000 individuals may exit the service, recruiting 3,000 more might be necessary? How has the Minister calculated the level of savings? Will he clarify whether he has taken account of the cost of pensions for those leaving the service in his global figure?

On the face of it, the Minister seems confident - I am unsure why - that none of this will have an adverse impact on front line services. Anyone working in the public service knows full well that haemorrhaging of this scale will have a negative consequence. The Minister stated that he was prepared to lift the moratorium and sanction appointments. Only his Department can do that. What will be the sanction process? The payments made to Ministers' advisers come to mind. We were told that breaches of the pay ceiling needed to be sanctioned by his Department, but he was quite liberal and sanctioned 14 such breaches. Will he assure us that he will be equally accommodating in the protection of front line service provision?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I do not expect any acknowledgment or praise from the Deputy opposite and I am never disappointed. The head count reduction is a strategic part of the Government's plan to reduce numbers, given that it constitutes a permanent reduction in pay. If one merely reduces pay, a choice that some Deputies on both sides of the House have indicated their preference for, it could develop back. Reducing in quantum terms the total number working in the public service is a permanent reduction. It is necessary, as we will borrow €1.5 billion per month during 2012 to pay for these services. We want to do this in a strategic way.

We have managed to make radical reforms in a range of areas. I am disappointed that there is no acknowledgment of the significant, ground-breaking reform programme that I presented to the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform and the Committee of Public Accounts last year. It entailed 200 individual actions and 70 programmes. I have set up a reform office in my Department and recruited an external director to drive reform. We can bring about radical change while protecting front line services. Unlike in many other European jurisdictions, Ireland has no national strikes, working to rule, and so on. We are getting on with the job while making changes.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to answer all of the list of questions. We have quantified the amount of money involved. The cost of pensions would be a real cost in any event. These people have worked up to 40 years and the planning for their pensions have been under way for those 40 years. It is not a new cost that was previously unaccounted for or unknown. It would have to be paid in any event, perhaps in one year or two, because the full complement of contributions has been made by these public servants. The strategy on which the Government has embarked, its reform agenda, is comprehensive, ground-breaking and different. I expect it to bear great fruit in the coming years.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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In regard to the additional staff to be recruited in the course of the year, it is my understanding that the majority will be teachers filling the vacancies that arise in schools throughout the State. Will the Minister give a commitment that where there are problems in front line services due to reduced numbers of nurses in the health sector, he will consider allowing additional recruitment? I know he will not say "Yes", but I hope, on behalf of the people, that he will give it favourable consideration. It would set people's minds somewhat at ease.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister did not indicate the process of sanction from his Department. I echo Deputy Fleming's call that the Minister keep his eye squarely on the front line. Is the €3.5 billion saving he asserts net of pension costs? Does it take account of the necessity to recruit up to 3,000 new entrants to the service?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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In regard to education, the Minister for Education and Skills has announced that where teachers retiring between the end of last year and the end of February 2012 are teaching examination classes, either at junior or leaving certificate level, they may continue on the payroll up to the conclusion of the examinations. It is important that we put people's minds at ease in that regard.

In the case of front line services in the health sector, the Department of Health has its own team examining this issue. We want to utilise the Croke Park agreement to the fullest in terms of redeployment, moving people from areas where there is no pressure to areas where they are needed. That is the first port of call. We will ensure there is flexibility that will allow front line services to be preserved.

In regard to the two points raised by Deputy McDonald, we have already down-sized the public service by the order of 26,000 since 2008.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am aware of that.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Our ambition is to effect a reduction of an additional 27,500 in the coming years. By 2015 that quantum will, together with the levy, accrue a saving of €3.5 billion on the pensions bill in gross terms. The pensions element is accounted for separately and would have to be paid in any event.