Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Question 5: To ask the Taoiseach if he has attended any meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Health. [39756/11]

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Question 6: To ask the Taoiseach the number of times the Cabinet sub Committee on Health has met since its establishment. [1919/12]

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Question 7: To ask the Taoiseach the number of meetings of the Cabinet sub committee on Health he has attended since its establishment. [1921/12]

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Question 8: To ask the Taoiseach the number of times the Cabinet sub committee has met in relation to health matters. [1936/12]

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 5 to 8, inclusive, together.

The Cabinet Committee on Health has met on three occasions to date - 5 October 2011, 24 November 2011 and 15 December 2011. I have attended and chaired all of the meetings of the committee to date.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. In an earlier reply, the Taoiseach stated that the Cabinet committee is supposed to work closely with the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, and with the HSE. Given that the Minister has taken personal charge of the Health Service Executive, will the Taoiseach tell us whether the committee has considered the Health Service Executive's service plan and the issue of cutting up to 900 nursing home places which is causing enormous distress to communities throughout the country? Was the latter issue approved without consultation with the Taoiseach and other Ministers, or did the Taoiseach approve it without consultation with the sector itself?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This health service plan has not been considered in great detail by the Cabinet Committee on Health. The Minister is required under law to respond to the HSE presenting him with a service plan. He has responded to that plan. He has written his response to the HSE. Approval for the plan does not mean authorisation for expenditure. The Minister informed the Cabinet of his decision today to authorise the plan and, obviously, the plan and his letter are public.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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If the Cabinet committee did not consider the health service plan, why does it exist? The most impactful decision on the health service for the next 12 months will be the health service plan. By definition, it will have an enormous impact on the level and quality of services that will be provided. It is an extraordinary admission to state that the Cabinet Committee on Health has not given any consideration to the health service plan.

Will the Taoiseach confirm whether the committee discussed the directorates that are to be established within the HSE that were announced in December by the Minister, Deputy Reilly? Will the Cabinet committee conduct a cost analysis on the universal health insurance proposition while it is preparing a White Paper?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am prevented by constitutional restrictions from speaking about the details of discussions at Cabinet sub-committees. I stated it was not discussed in great detail.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Unfortunately.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Minister, as I stated, is required by law to approve the plan or other. He has approved the plan. He has written to the HSE. He stated that he regards it as a dynamic document that will need to be reviewed on a regular basis in the light of emerging developments. As the pay and pension provisions in the plan are based on the exit of approximately 3,000 staff in 2012, the Minister intends that the first review will take place after February in the light of the exit of those who have signed on to accept the redundancy and exit from the service.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Bertie Ahern might well sue the Taoiseach for plagiarism. In response to another question about a Cabinet sub-committee, the Taoiseach stated that it was established to allow a deeper dialogue with the public and give the Oireachtas a larger role. This is a committee which has not met. In response to a question about this committee, he told us he is prevented from telling us what the committee discussed. This is a serious issue.

Earlier I asked the names of the nursing homes which are going to be closed because, obviously, if I am a patient in a nursing home and was told that between 550 and 900 public beds will be cut, I would think it might be me.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I can help the Deputy.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach has not helped me so far today. He is also signalling that some of these homes are going to be closed entirely. I ask him to help me on my terms because I asked a specific question. I may have missed the answer but I asked him to indicate whether he attended any meetings of the Cabinet committee on health and the number of times it met since it was established.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will help the Deputy now. I already answered that question. The Cabinet sub-committee on health met on three occasions. As I chaired each of the meetings, the Deputy can assume I attended the meetings. I hope that is clear now.

There are differences between these committees. One is an interdepartmental committee comprising public servants from all Departments, including the Offices of the Attorney General and Parliamentary Counsel. The other is a Cabinet sub-committee, which I chair as Taoiseach and which comprises Ministers and public servants from various Departments. That sub-committee is entitled to call before it whatever persons it so wishes in respect of the matters it is dealing with.

These are two very different committees. The interdepartmental committee, which is chaired by the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach with responsibility for European affairs, deals with the range of matters I have outlined. The Cabinet sub-committee is a constitutional sub-committee of the Cabinet and it deals with issues that can be recommended for acceptance by the Cabinet in full session.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We move on to Question No. 9.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have one brief question for the Taoiseach.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I asked a specific question.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputies asked the number of times the Cabinet committee met and if the Taoiseach had attended meetings. We are getting into the area of policy. They will have to table another question.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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God forbid we should do that.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We will be here all day dealing with the same question.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Ceann Comhairle to allow me to ask my question and he can decide if it is out of order.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Go ahead. I do not want to be finicky but there are other questions.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach indicated that the Minister for Health informed the Government about his plan, which I presume means that the Cabinet, when it did not dissent, agreed to it. Agreement has been reached on something that the committee established to investigate these matters has not seen. Who scrutinises the plan?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Nobody is hoodwinking anybody. Under law the Minister for Health was required to respond to the HSE when it sent him its plan for 2012. He has approved that plan. He has pointed out that it needs to be reviewed on a regular basis and that the first review will take place when the clear figures are known in respect of those who are going to leave the health service with a redundancy package at the end of February. He has also written formally to the chief executive to authorise approval for the plan and he informed the Cabinet of that this morning. The Cabinet accepted his recommendation to approve the plan subject to the aforementioned conditions.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We move on to Question No. 9.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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May I ask a supplementary question?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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No.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I tabled two Parliamentary Questions. It goes to the heart -----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy asked a simple question -----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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----- about the number of meetings and whether the Taoiseach attended them, and it has been answered. I have allowed supplementary questions.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is very quick.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we move on to other questions -----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The point I am trying to make -----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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----- which Deputies Martin and Adam have tabled?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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If the Deputy wants to put down a separate question on other issues, he should do so.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is not the point.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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What is the point?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach gave a solemn commitment to the House.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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About what?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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He said he would not use these Cabinet committees or hide behind Cabinet confidentiality to avoid discussion on legitimate issues. He gave that commitment at the outset of Taoiseach's Questions. That is the point I am making. Increasingly, the ground on which we can ask the Taoiseach questions -----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are into statements now.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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----- is being restricted. That is a fact.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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No, we are into statements.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We are down to once per week and we cannot discuss -----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy asked the question and as far as I am concerned -----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is narrowing all the time.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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----- as the independent Chair -----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I accept the Ceann Comhairle's independence but I am pointing out to the Taoiseach that the Government orders the business of the House and this is what is happening in reality.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach has answered the question and we are moving onto Question No. 9.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We are being denied opportunities to ask basic questions.