Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will the Minister be honest with the people and tell them that he wishes, by stealth, to close down the majority of small schools in Ireland through changing the criteria of 12 pupils required to 14 in September 2012, to 17 in 2013 and to 20 in 2014? This measure will close a significant number of small schools throughout the length and breadth of the country. These schools provide an invaluable high level of education locally to young children. Centralising these young children would remove them from their local communities where they have built up a great relationship with their teachers and remove them from a situation where the parents know they are safe and in a happy environment close to their homes. This way of life will be torn apart by these proposals.

I thank the Minister sincerely for being here this evening. I am well aware that he has said, and I have it in writing from him, that it is important to emphasise that no small schools will be closed due to the changes that have been announced. That cannot be the situation. He knows-----

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Can the Deputy repeat that?

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I said that the Minister has said it is important to emphasise that no small school will be closed due to the changes announced.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Yes. That is correct.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I disagree with that. I believe small schools will close as a result of this. Over the years, these small schools have seen significant investment. Classrooms have been upgraded, new roofs and playgrounds have been added and so on. It is terrible to think that these schools could now be closed down by stealth. I plead with the Minister to reconsider this. I know the situation and that the Minister must try to balance the books, but tearing at education and making cuts like this is not helpful. How much will be actually saved as a result? I have serious concerns about this issue and plead with the Minister to take on board these concerns. They come from my heart and I am here to defend small schools the length and breadth of the country, not just those in my constituency. I believe in education and in giving people every opportunity. Small classes are a better environment for young children, especially when starting out.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Much of what I have to say is similar to what Deputy Healy-Rae has said. I accept that in a time of crisis, like that we face currently, financial resources are scarce and we must ensure we get the best return for them. However, I equally believe that at a time like this there are opportunities to restructure the educational model. It is important not to miss that opportunity. The weakness in the Minister's approach is that it is too much stick and not enough carrot in respect of the requirement to change. The savings that could be made in the education area could be delivered in other areas and I will suggest some that are worth considering.

We could have administrative principals over clusters of small schools, who would decide themselves over a period of time on the optimum model for delivery of education in that cluster area. This opportunity has been missed and now backs are up and this is an emotive issue. For example, in my area there will be a meeting next Monday night which will be emotive and which will mobilise the community. It is regrettable also, in the context of the value for money review which is examining the small two-teacher schools, that we did not wait for the outcome of that review to have an informed debate, perhaps initiated by the Department's inspectors, with boards of management, parents and teachers to discover the optimum delivery of education services in these communities, most but not all of which are rural communities. There is an issue also with regard to how this relates to Church of Ireland small schools. I suggest there could be savings made through such a clustering arrangement, particularly in terms of shared services, back office facilities and secretarial administration.

We also need to look critically at the curriculum and to sweat it down in early years to make savings. Currently, we teach English, Irish, Maths, history, geography, drama, science, social, political and health education, art, music and religion in primary schools. We should look at sweating this down in the early years to make savings. This would complement the Minister's objective of improving literacy and numeracy.

Two minutes is a very short time to make an appropriate case, but I suggest there are opportunities to remodel delivery of education in rural areas to an extent that parents would go along with and that would be to the benefit of children. However, this must come from the bottom up.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I have an official reply with me, but I do not propose to put it on the record as I want to give a genuine response to both Deputies. I have no agenda to close any school, nor does the Department have a central plan or model that will be applied willy nilly across the country. That might have been the way in the past.

Our system is 181 years old this year. As I said last night, at one stage there were more than 6,000 primary schools across rural Ireland, because they were set up in 1831. Now, there are 3,200. I want to get to the bottom of this issue with my response. What I want for rural Ireland is for children attending school in rural Ireland to have the best possible primary education system that can be delivered in the 21st century. However, this does not have to be delivered on a platform that was designed in the 1940s or in the 1950s. We do not have a model on a shelf in the Department in Marlborough Street that will fit all the way from Kerry or Cork to Donegal. If communities and parents can come forward with ideas, we will look at them. I am aware of a clustering model in east Cork where 13 primary schools came together and utilised the infrastructure and the resources of those 13 buildings and integrated boards of management, secretarial support and resources.

What I want to achieve is the best possible outcomes for rural pupils who attend rural schools in the 21st century, for children starting next September who will celebrate their 21st birthdays in 2030 or thereabouts. We must look at how best to do this. We do not have the best model. We do not have any particular model. However, the current system cannot stay still any more than it did 20, 30 or 40 years ago. The Deputies are aware of the famous controversy in Dún Chaoin. All the protests in the world did not stop the march of progress. However, that march must be initiated by the people on the ground, not by the people on Marlborough Street.

I understand that the value for money report will be published in a few weeks times. The Deputies might be aware of it, although "value for money" is not the most elegant phrase. There are just under 600 schools of 50 or fewer pupils. Most of these are in the west, given that its population has been more static and is now more concentrated than previously. Let us find a proper, creative and sensible way to deal with this issue. The Department will not gain by emptying schools and selling them, given that there is no market. In many cases, the Department does not own the buildings. Rather, they are owned by the parish and so on. There is no ulterior motive. Fixed costs are associated with any school. Insurance remains the same whether the school has two or four teachers. There are other fixed costs, for example, heating.

I do not know the answer to my next question. Given current levels of traffic, how many parents in the Deputies' part of the world let their children walk to school along roads and boreens? I am somewhat familiar with the area. If I lived there, I would not let an eight or nine year old walk the road to school. The schools exist because every child who attended them previously used to walk to them.

Where will we go from here? The Deputies should discuss the matter with us after the value for money report has been published and they have had a chance to examine it from the point of view of what is best for people's children and grandchildren and for the delivery of education. Their proposals might differ between Kerry and Cork, but we need not have the one system. Instead, we need the best outcome, that is, a kid attending primary school in rural Ireland getting as good if not a better choice of curriculum and teachers year by year as opposed to, for example, four years in a single room. The Deputies' communities know best how something will work on the ground.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Minister for not reading from a script and appreciate that his comments were from the heart. We all want what is best for children, but families and I are terrified that schools built through the hard work of previous Administrations that saw fit to invest money in them will lose teachers and be downgraded. As the Minister stated, the number of national schools has decreased from 6,000 to approximately half that figure because the larger number could not be sustained.

I am familiar with Lauragh, Tuosist and other areas. All Deputies have small schools in their areas that they want to keep open. We want families to have the option of keeping their children nearby instead of putting them on buses to centralised locations. We will work with the Minister to achieve everything that we can.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Minister for the openness of his response. Is his Department in favour of clustering, that is, administrative principals taking responsibility for a cluster of schools? A figurehead is required to drive and build a consensus at local level. The Department must spearhead such an approach on the ground with the schools in this category, particularly smaller schools.

This debate is not exclusively about threatened closures. It is also about funding and the question of four-teacher and three-teacher schools losing one teacher each. In some circumstances, the threat to withdraw services might lead to parents walking away, which would have consequences in terms of school transport costs and additional classroom requirements.

The concept of an administrative principal running a campus incorporating, for example, a primary school and a secondary school a couple of miles apart is an option. The principal would drive this initiative. The Department needs to send a signal in this regard.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Department, which has always responded to Ministers and will continue to do so after I am gone, will do what the Minister has directed as authorised by this assembly. I am up for anything that will improve rural Ireland and that will have parents' endorsement. For example, an extended parish or a combination of parishes might want one board of management with a single point of contact and a number of buildings that would constitute the campus of a primary school. For example, there could be a crèche, a junior school - junior and senior infants, first class and second class - and so on. No template is sitting on a shelf in Marlborough Street to be imposed in Kerry or Cork. It would be much better, viable and sustainable if people in the Deputies' parts of Cork and Kerry proposed an initiative that could fit or be adjusted to fit Cavan, Monaghan, and so on.

We want a system that delivers the best educational outcomes for young people attending rural schools in the 21st century. The Deputies know what will work on the ground much better than we do. It is our duty to ensure that schools reach certain quality standards. I am open to any formulation that fits within the framework of primary education.

The value for money report will be published in the next three or four weeks. I have not seen sight of it and cannot pretend that I know what it contains. However, it will be the trigger upon which this discussion can commence.