Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Question 52: To ask the Minister for Defence the process of consultation he engaged in before his decision to reduce the number of brigades from three to two; the persons or groups with whom he met and when; the input the armed forces had in this decision; the estimated savings associated with this reduction; if he envisages any further barrack closures as a result of the reduction; if he envisages any troop or staff transfers from their current location as a result of this reduction; if so, the number of same; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [39994/11]

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Question 53: To ask the Minister for Defence the consultation process he undertook with representatives of PDFORRA and RACO on the proposed changes to army brigades. [39953/11]

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 52 and 53 together.

The Government's comprehensive review of expenditure formed the basis for the budgetary decisions necessary to achieve the targets for fiscal consolidation over the period to the end of 2014.

A detailed submission by the Department of Defence formed part of the review process. The submission highlighted the significant reform that has been undertaken in recent years in Defence. It also set out options for Government consideration and highlighted the consequences of alternative courses of action.

I am pleased to say that the Government decided to maintain the strength of the Permanent Defence Force at 9,500 personnel. This recognises the significant modernisation that has been achieved to date and reflects the Government's intention that the Defence Forces retain the capacity to operate effectively across all of the assigned roles within the restricted financial allocation.

In response to this revised strength ceiling of 9,500, there will be a major re-organisation of the Defence Forces encompassing a reduction in the number of Army brigades from three to two. The Chief of Staff was consulted in this regard. I have asked the Chief of Staff and the Secretary General of the Department of Defence to bring forward detailed proposals for the Minister's consideration. This will include proposals regarding territorial areas of responsibility. Further barrack closures are not envisaged as part of this process. The Deputies will appreciate that in advance of receipt of these proposals I will not be in a position to answer detailed questions.

The reduction in the strength of the PDF to 9,500 personnel will deliver sustainable savings. The re-organisation is a response to this reduction and is not intended as a cost saving measure in its own right. The primary focus is to free up the maximum number of military personnel from administrative and support tasks. In short, the re-organisation is about maintaining operational outputs and capabilities to best effect, within a reduced strength.

In accordance with the Croke Park agreement, the representative associations will be fully consulted on all aspects of implementation that fall within the scope of representation. Across Departments, a similar approach is generally taken to implementing high level policy decisions as a result of the CRE.

The Defence organisation has an enviable track record of modernisation and reform. This remains a work in progress. I look forward to working closely with the Chief of Staff and the Secretary General in furthering the reform agenda.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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It is unfortunate that the Minister, Deputy Shatter, is not here because my question goes to the very heart of his style of ministry. The Minister of State, Deputy Kehoe, spoke of consultation in terms of the Croke Park agreement, but this was announced before anybody in PDFORRA or RACO was told about it and before any Members were told about it.

There are no savings to be made, as Deputy Kehoe stated in his response. I struggle to see where reducing from three brigades to two will result in efficiencies or a better and more efficiently managed Army. It is not as if we had a huge force that would be managed better in two rather than in three brigades.

It would have been far better to have gone into detail with PDFORRA and RACO and, I suspect, with Army management in terms of the ramifications of this decision before announcing it in such a manner.

I will proudly speak in favour of retaining the Western Brigade. It has performed a significant service, at home and abroad, for many years and many of its members are serving as we speak in the Lebanon. Deputy Kehoe saw them off a few weeks ago.

There is no efficiency immediately apparent in this decision. Deputy Kehoe stated it is not a cost decision. It is a bad day's work on the part of the Minister to undermine the morale of the Army and of the brigades in question by making this decision in the manner in which it was made.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am aware that the Minister met representatives of both PDFORRA and RACO yesterday on this issue. In response to the previous question, I stated the number of personnel in the Defence Forces is 9,500. In recent years, the number was as high as 12,000 to 14,000. Unfortunately, we do not have enough personnel in the Defence Forces at present to maintain and sustain three brigades.

The Minister consulted the Chief of Staff on this issue. There will be full consultation between the Department and the Defence Forces. Thereafter, a proposal will be made to the Minister. It is a question of consultation, and full consultation will take place over the next while on where the brigades will be placed. The Minister, Deputy Shatter, will make his decision in the not-too-distant future.

I assure the Deputy that it is because of the personnel number in the Defence Forces that we have had to make this decision. From having examined the funding available and the personnel figures, I note the previous Minister for Defence believed the budget would be sufficient to sustain a force of over 9,500, but if he had remained in office there would be a personnel number of 8,000 because there would not be sufficient finances to pay any more. This does not reflect on Deputy Calleary but on the previous Minister.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State referred to consultation and he just confirmed that PDFORRA and RACO were not consulted prior to the decision being announced. Is it putting the cart before the horse to announce reorganisation involving a reduction from three brigades to two before asking the Chief of Staff and Secretary General to bring forward fitting proposals? Surely a consultation process should be about whether a decision is feasible. Will the Minister of State clarify the position on this?

Who actually made the decision? Was it a recommendation that came to the Minister or did the Minister himself decide, based on the figures, budgets and efficiencies, whether it was best to have three or two brigades?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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This is a ministerial decision for the Minister for Defence, Deputy Shatter. He asks the Department to come up with a proposal. Both the defence and departmental sides would work together and return to the Minister with a proposal for him to make a decision.

There was very little consultation on the decentralisation of the Department of Defence. This is a decision the Minister must make himself. He will consult the Department and Defence Forces before he makes his decision. As the Deputy will understand, the Defence Forces have the knowledge on the ground. The Minister will be open to hearing the views of all parties and none if they have proposals to make.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State is saying the Minister decided to reduce the number from three to two. Having made that decision, did he then consult the Chief of Staff and Secretary General? Alternatively, did the consultation take place prior to the announcement? That is what I am trying to ascertain.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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This is a ministerial decision. The Minister has asked the Department and Chief of Staff to make proposals in this regard. They were consulted on this by the Minister.