Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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Question 3: To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the discussions if any he has had with public service sectoral interests in the context of next years budget; the impacts if any, that have been advised to them in terms of staff and budget reductions; the planned reductions in 2012 by sector; the way the reductions will be managed to ensure front line services are maintained; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [35353/11]

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy will appreciate that some of the issues raised in her question relate to budgetary matters which will be addressed in December's budget. I do not propose to pre-empt any decisions of the Government on the budget in my reply, nor have I done so in any discussions with public service sectoral interests, and I have met a cross-section of them. However, the programme for Government provides for a reduction of public service employees by between 18,000 and 21,000 by 2014, compared to the total number at the end of 2010 and to reduce that number by a further 4,000 by 2015.

The necessary reduction in public service numbers to meet the sustainable targets set is well under way and the number employed has fallen below 300,000 for the first time since 2006. This process will also benefit from the anticipated number of retirements up to end of February 2012, when the option available to public servants, under the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (No. 2) Act, 2009, to retire on their pre-existing salaries expires. However, I need hardly emphasise the immense challenge this reduction in numbers provides and will continue to provide for the public service in the coming years, particularly when the pressures on all public services are increasing at a time when the resources available to fund our public services have never been so stretched. In order to protect front line services, the necessary reduction in numbers and resources will require a fundamental change to the way in which the Government and the public services operate. I tried to outline that today and I look forward to explaining it to the committees in more detail later.

To address current challenges and those that will inevitably arise in the coming years, I am confident that our public services and all of us as public servants will be flexible, adaptable and open to change as we go about our public work.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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In asking this question, I was trying to visualise how these cuts will be delivered and managed sector by sector. I believe that public service reform was needed long before the crash happened, and I think the Minister would agree with that. One of the things that needs to be achieved is that we get the right people with the right skills in the right locations if we are to have such a major reduction in numbers. If we end up rehiring people on a contract basis or an agency basis, this will defeat the purpose of the reform. We get one chance at this.

I produced a document on this and I will give a copy of it to the Minister later. It is about this very point. There are wide differences in the quality of public services, depending on where people live. We have used this historic model, rather than looking at patterns of growth. The areas that tend to do disproportionately poorly are those that are expanding and have a young demographic. These have the greatest need for public services. The point is made by the examples I have used. I will pass these on to the Minister, for what it is worth. Essentially, I am trying to get a sense of what kind of roadmap we have to make sure we target this kind of inequality of service provision while at the same time protecting front-line services in the context of the changes that are inevitably going to happen.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy makes a valid point, and I would be delighted to read her proposals in this regard. One of the things I said today is that we do not have a monopoly of ideas on this side of the House. This is a process, and we are open to ideas. When I come to the Committee of Public Accounts and the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, I will make a full presentation on the timelines and the objectives that are being set out and how we are to achieve them, and any new ideas will be very welcome in that context.

Two of the points made by the Deputy are really important. One is the need for an integrated public service, because the current public service has grown like Topsy. I have only had a really good birds-eye view of it from my new position in the last eight months, although I have been involved in public affairs for a long time. One can see this by looking at any area of it. For example, holiday arrangements vary from 22 days to 45 days, with people getting fair days or race days depending on where they are, and hours are operated differently. To have an integrated public service with flexibility of movement within it is my objective, although it will take some time. We are setting the pieces in place from now on, but to change what is in place is much more profound. Ironically, the awfulness of a crisis gives one leverage to do things one probably could not have done in what one might call peacetime. There is a major buy-in from the public service - I hope there will be - to allow the sort of profound changes the Deputy and I would like to see.

The second important point made by the Deputy was about changing the emphasis - putting the focus on the citizen so he or she is in control. For example, in the health service we want to deliver, the money will follow the patient. People will not be arguing for this hospital or that hospital; the patient will decide where he or she wants to be treated, and the good hospitals will flourish while the public themselves will move away from those that are inefficient, have long waiting times or do not deliver high quality treatments. That maxim should be followed in service delivery across all areas of the public service. Access to information is also important. We want better statistics to be available - a sort of reversal of the principle of freedom of information, so that people are not asking for information but we are actually pushing it out. In this way we can provide a good snapshot of services and know where the best services are available. This would not only allow the citizen to access the best services but also shame the ones that are not good.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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Do I have time for a supplementary question?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sorry; we are over time.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I am too long-winded.