Dáil debates

Tuesday, 11 October 2011

Ceisteanna - Questions (Resumed)

Constitutional Amendments

4:00 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Question 11: To ask the Taoiseach if he has reviewed arrangements in place within his Department to consult opposition leaders on matters relating to constitutional reform. [24726/11]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Question 12: To ask the Taoiseach if, further to his previous commitments in Dáil Éireann, he will detail the nature and extent of consultations with the opposition which will be held before he finalises his proposal for a constitutional convention. [24727/11]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Question 13: To ask the Taoiseach if he will detail preparations made for publishing the proposal to establish a constitutional convention. [24728/11]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Question 14: To ask the Taoiseach the consultations he has held or plans to hold with political parties or other stakeholders in relation to the proposed constitutional convention. [26092/11]

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Question 15: To ask the Taoiseach the further referenda he plans in this Dáil term; and if a referendum is planned on the abolition of the Seanad. [26987/11]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Question 16: To ask the Taoiseach the preparations that have been undertaken in relation to the proposed constitutional convention. [27364/11]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to answer Questions Nos. 11 to 16, inclusive, together.

Work is proceeding in my Department on the preparation of proposals for a referendum on the abolition of the Seanad and for the setting up of a constitutional convention. These proposals, when ready, will be considered by the Government.

The proposal to abolish the Seanad was signalled by the Government parties prior to the general election and the Government intends to put this question to the people in a referendum next year. The Dáil and Seanad will have an opportunity to debate fully the necessary legislation when it is published. With regard to the setting up of a constitutional convention, once proposals are approved by Government I intend that they will be the subject of full consultation with the Opposition parties.

As Deputies will be aware, it is proposed, in conjunction with the forthcoming presidential election, to hold referenda on judicial pay and the granting of powers to the Houses of the Oireachtas to conduct inquiries. Proposals for the referenda on the other constitutional amendments promised in the programme for Government are being progressed by the relevant Ministers.

I intend to make an announcement in respect of the constitutional convention following the people having voted on the two constitutional amendments on 27 October.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Three Deputies have asked questions and the time allotted is six minutes.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I have asked two questions.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have asked three questions.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I wish to ensure that everyone has an opportunity to ask questions.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I must articulate my concern about the Taoiseach's statement that he will make an announcement after the voting on the constitutional amendments. Six months ago he promised substantive consultations on the proposed convention would take place before a proposal was published. I do not think this is a great way to start. I ask him to confirm his intention to have substantive consultation with Opposition party leaders before he makes any announcement about the proposed convention so our views can be taken into account as to the issues to be debated by the convention. Will the work of the convention be limited to topics selected by the Government or can others introduce new ideas? What is the time line regarding the referendum on the future of the Seanad?

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I appeal to the Taoiseach to have the consultation before the Government brings forward recommendations, otherwise it becomes a process of notification as opposed to full, inclusive consultation.

I have a question about voting rights for holders of Irish passports. Sinn Féin tabled a motion in the Seanad which was voted down by the two Government parties even though the Taoiseach had given a commitment that this matter would be put to the constitutional convention. I also refer to the success, thus far, of the Irish global economic forum. I did not wish to raise this issue at the forum because I did not wish to embarrass the Government, considering the people who want to help us will not have a vote. I ask for clarification on this matter and I ask that consultation should happen before the decision is made.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I ask the Taoiseach to clarify whether he said it will be a referendum to abolish the Seanad or to reform the Seanad.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will spell out the word "abolish" for the Deputy.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Thank you. That elitist institution which is undemocratically elected should obviously be gone. Has the Taoiseach any proposal during his term of office to deal with the proposals in the Constitution regarding the election of President? It is highly undemocratic that citizens may only stand for election as President if they have been vetted by the political establishment or a bunch of politicians.

Photo of Emmet StaggEmmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Just like Deputy Higgins.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Should the Taoiseach also have a proposal to abolish that institution-----

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Why does Deputy Higgins not run?

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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-----especially in view of the farce that passes for a presidential campaign, with half a million people unemployed and our hospitals in shreds and the media filled with a personality fest known as a presidential campaign? What are the Taoiseach's proposals regarding either abolition or at least democratising the office?

Does the Taoiseach accept that in outlining fairly precise figures for Dáil constituencies the Constitution sometimes creates a straitjacket which results in lines on maps, much like the way the Western imperialists divided up Africa to suit themselves? For example, a cohort of voters in Swords are referred to as being in Dublin West and they are feeling very alienated from their hinterland to which they belonged for decades and to which they should be returned in a Dáil constituency review. Will the Taoiseach deal with that so the rights of residents in those areas are respected, rather than leave them subjected to a line through a map just to fit the figures in the Constitution?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This has been a matter for a commission working independently under the chairmanship of a judge, so that there cannot be any interference from the political process and lest there might be allegations of attempted gerrymandering or whatever else. I understand that wherever one draws a line based on population movements can cause difficulties and that where some towns or counties are split people feel very aggrieved that they might not have the opportunity to elect a Deputy, or Deputies. The people in Leitrim were very upset, as were the people in areas of north County Dublin and in other parts of the country. As Deputy Higgins is aware, wherever one starts, there is a roll-on effect. I do not intend to interfere in any way with the process that has been accepted democratically here of an entirely independent commission made up of people of repute who have no political association or bias to do the job.

In respect of the convention, I do not want to make any announcement about it before the presidential election and the two referenda that are taking place so that nobody will be confused about what the constitutional convention is to do. If Members wish, after the presidential election and the two referenda, I will hold consultations with the leaders of the Opposition, take their views, allow the Government form its view and publish our proposals. Or, if Members prefer, I can do it the other way round and let the Government announce its recommendations here and allow comment on those. That is a matter we can talk about.

Members should understand that the programme for Government contains a commitment to have a constitutional convention. There are a number of other issues also set out, including the review of the Dáil electoral system, which will take into account the issue mentioned by Deputy Higgins; reducing the term of the office of the Presidency from seven years to five years - my view is that the term should coincide with the European and local elections, which are now fixed five-year periods - provision for same sex marriage; the broadening of the reference in the Constitution to the role of women in the home to one which recognises the role of the parent in the home; removing "blasphemy" from the Constitution; the possible reduction in the voting age; and any other relevant constitutional amendment that might be recommended by the convention. The convention will also be asked to look at giving citizens the right to vote at Irish embassies in presidential elections.

Work has been under way for some time on the preparation of detailed proposals for the establishment of the convention. These will address the status and independence of the convention, its terms of reference, its structure and make up, selection methods - particularly in regard to citizen participation North and South - and the convention's working methods, timetable and budget.

A number of other suggestions for inclusion were also made. The Ombudsman wrote to me to suggest the convention should consider putting her office, the Office of the Ombudsman, into the Constitution, similar to the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. The president of the Human Rights and Equality Commission wrote to me, the Tánaiste and to the Minister for Justice and Equality to suggest that the convention should take into account human rights standards. In addition, a Sinn Féin Private Members' motion in the Seanad in October 2011 supports the extension of voting rights in presidential elections to all Irish citizens in the Six Counties as well as to citizens living and working abroad, subject to conditions set out in law. These are all issues that can be discussed by the convention.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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What about corporate donations?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We will change that by law.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It needs a constitutional change.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes. I said previously that we would give consideration to involving citizens from the Six Counties in the convention. The convention will have the inclusivity that will allow Members of the Dáil, the Seanad, local authorities and ordinary citizens to have their say and it will move throughout the country in the same way as the Forum on Europe did. We also propose to give consideration to including a Northern connection in the convention. The results of the convention will be considered by the Government and be a matter for discussion among the parties. When the proposals for establishing the convention are put together, we will discuss them with the Opposition leaders. I will discuss with Deputy Martin and Deputy Adams, the leader of the Independent group and the Socialist Party leader the issues of timing and how we will go about it. It is of considerable importance and I would be very happy to have the view of Deputy Higgins on it.

Deputy Martin asked about the referendum on the abolition of the Seanad. I would like to hold that referendum on the same date as we hold the referendum on children's rights. Both of these issues are under discussion. The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs is in discussion with the Attorney General and the children's advocacy groups to see whether we can arrive at an appropriate wording to put to the people.

The question of the abolition of the Seanad and the removal of Articles and references to the Seanad and its responsibilities is the subject of considerable work in my Department at the moment. I do not have a timescale for this and do not want to give Deputy Martin a date in case unforeseen constitutional complications arise. However, it is my intention to hold the referendum at an appropriate date and as early as possible next year when the issues are clear. I cannot give a date at this stage, but plan to hold the two referenda together.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There was a promise of substantial consultation. Written Answers follow Adjournment.