Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Question 53: To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform his plans to establish a new unit within his Department, through legislation that will have authority to audit and to identify areas of compliance, financial and programme value for money audits with investigation powers including fraudulent activities, to oversee the work of external auditors, to examine problems and carry out special assignments identified by the Comptroller and Auditor General, and to establish a fraud and waste hotline programme in his Department [28463/11]

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Question 67: To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform his plans to establish a new unit in his Department based on the Auditor General's office of the city of Toronto, Canada, the functions of such office through legislation will have a mandate to access audit projects to identify areas of compliance, financial and programme value for money audits with investigative powers of a forensic nature including fraudulent activities to oversee the work of external auditors, to examine problems and carry out special assignments identified by the Auditor General, to establish a fraud and waste hotline programme in the department, this auditor general will have day to day access to records of all public expenditure sectors; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [28145/11]

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 53 and 67 together.

There are no plans to establish a unit of this nature within my Department. The Comptroller and Auditor General is an independent constitutional officer with a distinct role in accounting for the effective and efficient use of public funds. The role of the Comptroller and Auditor General is to control, on behalf of the State, all disbursements and to audit all accounts of moneys administered by or under the authority of the Oireachtas. The Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General under legislation has responsibility to audit and report on the accounts of public bodies; establish that transactions of public bodies are in accordance with the legal authorities governing them and that funds are applied for the purposes intended; provide assurance on the system of internal financial control put in place by each body; examine whether each body administers its resources economically and efficiently and has mechanisms in place to evaluate the effectiveness of operations; and authorise the release of funds from the Exchequer for purposes permitted by law.

The Comptroller and Auditor General also has authority under legislation to carry out special value for money examinations. Such examinations will result in either a special report which records the results of in-depth examinations of specific issues or general matters arising from audits, inspections or examinations carried out, or a value for money report which records the results of examination into the economy and efficiency with which State bodies acquire, use and dispose of resources and the systems procedures and practices employed by state bodies for evaluating the effectiveness of their operations. In implementing this mandate, account is taken of the special considerations which attach to the management of public funds including the requirements of probity and sound corporate governance. Additionally, in the context of this mandate, the programme for Government includes a provision to give the Comptroller and Auditor General new powers in relation to value-for-money audits of State programmes.

Departments and agencies are responsible, in the first instance, for project management and ensuring value for money. Within my Department, the central expenditure evaluation unit is a centre of expertise on appraisal and evaluation in the public service. It is involved in an assurance process for capital appraisal which includes spot-checks for compliance with the capital appraisal guidelines. It leads on the value for money and policy review initiative which includes taking a co-authoring role on all value for money reviews in the four big spending Departments - Health, Social Protection, Education and Skills and Justice and Equality. It is also actively involved in value for money reviews in all other Departments.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House

With regard to the abuse of public funds, the Comptroller and Auditor General considers all circumstances involving an abuse of public funds brought to his attention by members of the public. Whether a particular matter warrants investigation or examination as part of the normal financial audit will depend on the circumstances of the case, its materiality and the evidence available to substantiate the circumstances surrounding the alleged abuse or waste of public funds.

Responsibility with regard to matters surrounding the prevention, detection and dealing with fraud lies with the management of individual Departments and agencies in the first instance and relevant organisations can be contacted by the public in this regard. The perpetration of fraud is a criminal offence and as such must be dealt with on a formal basis by the appropriate authorities.

In view of the structures already in place in relation to audit, evaluation and reporting of abuse or fraud, there are no plans to duplicate these processes within my Department.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his reply. I am a Member for a very short time but I am sure that our country is losing millions of euro in fraud, waste and bad management. This morning I contacted the auditor general of the Toronto city audit department and in discussing this matter, he made clear that it is very difficult to measure the deterrent factor of a hotline that exists in Toronto but that it acts as a deterrent and it has established already not only significant results in reporting fraud, waste and bad management but has engaged those in management to be more responsible and conscious that it is public money and not their own money that is at issue. His second point is that the benefits of the audit process has been proven to pay for the department seven or eight times over.

The city of Toronto has saved millions of Canadian dollars on waste by reforming the methods in which it spends money, value for money audits and dealing with fraud. That is the reason that I tabled this question. I would like to discuss some of the finer points that I have learned about this week. How long does it take in the current circumstance to process queries, investigations, spot checks?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I thank the Deputy for tabling the question and for his investigative work. Deputy Keating approached me directly about the question and I asked my Department for a briefing because I was not aware of the audit function of the city of Toronto. I have a detailed briefing on the auditor general and the role of his office. I would be happy to discuss that. The Deputy might consider it in the context of the committee system. I am advised that the so called Toronto model would conflict with the legislative and constitutional role of our Comptroller and Auditor General.

I am interested in anything that will reduce waste, identify fraud and eliminate it and will get better value for money for the taxpayers. I thank the Deputy for his initiate.