Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Question 44: To ask the Minister for Justice and Law Reform the estimated annual cost to the State of the Legal Aid Board administering the Criminal Legal Aid Scheme; if Heads of a Bill have yet been prepared to make provision for the Legal Aid Board administering the Criminal Legal Aid Scheme; when he expects to publish and circulate the required Bill before the House; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42835/10]

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I am glad to be able to inform the Deputy that my proposals are to include in the criminal justice (legal aid) Bill, referred to in the Government legislation programme, provisions to enable the transfer from my Department to the Legal Aid Board of responsibility for the administration and management of criminal legal aid. Drafting of the Bill is in the course of being finalised with a view to publication in this session.

My aim in the Bill is to strengthen the system of granting legal aid. It will, among other matters, better regulate the taking of statements of means, increase the sanction for false declarations and allow the board to verify the means of applicants and to prosecute cases of abuse. The board will be in a position to explore the method by which legal services are delivered. I am in consultation with the Attorney General with a view to making as many changes as possible in the system of criminal legal aid, consistent with the requirements of the Constitution. The details of my final proposals will be announced by way of the publication of at least the heads of the Bill in the near future.

The transfer to the board of responsibility for criminal legal aid should not result in any additional cost to the Exchequer. Moreover, the overall effect of the Bill when fully implemented should result in savings. Having regard to its very significant cost to the Exchequer, I am determined to achieve a system of criminal legal aid that is subject to more stringent checks and balances.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister advise us on what the calculated savings will be, as he said this will result in savings?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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We will not know until the Bill is implemented but criminal legal aid has risen exponentially over the past number of years. It is a demand-led scheme and the Bill will put in place checks and balances relating to the granting of it under the Constitution. There is case law relating to it showing clearly that if a person coming before the courts does not have proper means, he or she will be entitled to representations. That was confirmed recently in the Carmody case. This will legislate for scenarios like the Carmody case and also put in place new systems, including one I proposed to my officials. I understood it was not the practice of the existing criminal legal aid system for a defendant to be asked to produce a PPS number but that will be a requirement under new legislation. That is one small changes but there are other major changes to bring it under the remit of the Legal Aid Board, which is willing to take on this work in order to have better administration of the overall scheme.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is aware that the current criminal legal aid scheme operates on the basis that application is made to the court, usually at District Court level. Legal aid would be granted and the District Court judge would make a decision. That does not involve a large bureaucracy in administering the system.

Will the Minister outline how many additional employees will be required in the Legal Aid Board to administer a criminal legal aid scheme? Has he calculated within the cost savings the likely adjournments that will take place of criminal trials while the Legal Aid Board processes criminal legal aid applications? Is he aware of the fact that in dealing with civil litigation, particularly in the family law area, within the existing law centres there are often substantial delays before legal aid applications are processed, which result in cases being delayed in coming to final hearing in the courts? Has the Minister factored in the cost impact of this with regard to Garda time and the delays in criminal proceedings being heard, with the possibility of individuals who are repeat offenders being on bail longer than is desirable, continuing to offend while awaiting determination of legal aid applications?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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As Minister I am very conscious of the need to ensure that savings are made in this budget, which as I stated has increased exponentially despite the fact that the level of fees paid has reduced over the past two years by 8% and by a further 8%. The bill continues to rise. This comes back to the earlier point that there is more activity in the courts. Under the Constitution it is the case that somebody is entitled to representation if it is shown that the person does not have means for representation.

There is some disquiet in the general public for the way in which it is sometimes perceived that people are getting criminal legal aid but not entitled to it. I do not say this in any disparaging way with regard to administration by judges but I am trying to ensure that those who require criminal legal aid from the taxpayer are deserving of it. I suggest that the Deputy wait until the heads of the Bill are published and he will see that we are very conscious of the need to ensure it does not increase adjournments and the process will not dramatically change the system.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I wish to allow Deputy Rabbitte a brief supplementary question.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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At least there will be better checks and balances in administration.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Deputy Rabbitte has been called.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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A number of staff in my Department will be seconded to the Legal Aid Board.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I remind Members that under Standing Orders they are allowed a minute to put a question. I have been allowing three times that and we are still not making great progress.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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It has been a pattern of the Minister's successive periods in Government that quangos and agencies have been established to do work previously done by the administrative government. If it is the case that additional staff prove necessary to fund this transfer of the criminal legal aid scheme, will the staff be transferred from existing State service?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I was trying to reply to Deputy Shatter. It is anticipated that a number of existing staff in my Department will be moved to the Legal Aid Board. The board may have additional requirements contracted in but I do not anticipate a significant increase in staff because of the way in which we intend to administer the scheme through the Legal Aid Board. We are somewhat constrained by the constitutional requirement to ensure that somebody who does not have means is represented in court.