Dáil debates
Wednesday, 17 November 2010
Other Questions
Prison Committals
3:00 pm
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Question 42: To ask the Minister for Justice and Law Reform the number of prisoners in each of our prisons and penal institutions, for which latest figures are available, and the approximate average annual cost per prisoner in each such institution [42830/10]
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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On 15 November 2010, there were 4,416 prisoners in custody as compared to a bed capacity of 4,430. This represents an occupancy level of 100%. A table detailing the numbers in custody in each prison is being provided to the Deputy.
It should be noted that the Irish Prison Service does not record or breakdown costs per individual prison, rather figures are based on three categories, namely, open prison, closed prison and high security prison. Loughan House and Shelton Abbey are open prisons. Portlaoise Prison is the only high security prison in the jurisdiction. The cost per available staffed prison space in open prisons in 2009 was €50,521, representing a 16% decrease on the cost in 2008, which was €60,150. The cost per available staffed prison space in closed prisons in 2009 was €79,308, representing a 13% decrease on the 2008 figure, which was €90,837. The cost per available staffed prison space in the high security prison was €75,892, representing a 51% decrease on the 2008 figure, which was €155,306. The average cost of an available staffed prison space during 2009 was €77,222, representing a decrease of 16.7% on the 2008 figure, which was €92,717.
The decrease in average cost is attributed to the following two factors, namely, a decrease in total costs of €17.7 million, of which €15.5 million relates to pay costs and an increase in bed capacity of 495, from 3,611 as at 31 December 2008 to 4,106 as at 31 December 2009. I am sure the Deputy will agree there has been a substantial increase in the number of beds in the system.
Consistent with calculations in previous years, costs which are not under the direct control of the Irish Prison Service have been excluded. Teachers' salary costs are, therefore, excluded from this exercise as these costs are not provided for under the prisons budget allocation. Similarly, capital expenditure, including building-equipment assets and small works, is excluded from the calculations in the interest of facilitating comparison between prison types.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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On the number of people in our prisons, do I get the impression that there is an inexorable rise in the number of people going to prison, which impacts on lowering the average cost? Is it a cause of concern to the Minister that these figures appear to be increasing and what steps, if any, are being taken - I accept the Fines Act was introduced but I do not know how operational it is - from the point of ensuring that minor offenders are not sent to prison, in particular in respect of non-payment of minor fines such as having no television licence and so on?
Perhaps the Minister would update the House on other proposals in this area. Does the Government propose to progress the disastrous Thornton Hall project, in regard to which €30 million was wasted on the purchase of land worth approximately €5 million or €6 million at the time and which may now only be worth half that amount? Is that project on hold or is this to be more money down the drain?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Deputy O'Keeffe's second question has broadened the scope of the question tabled.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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A response in regard to a later question deals with the issue of Thornton Hall. I have tried to deal with the issue of prison committals in the long, medium and short term, the long term response being Thornton Hall. A response to a later question in regard to Thornton Hall clearly indicates that the Government is moving on Thornton Hall. It is expected that, all things being equal, the first prison cells in Thornton Hall will be available in 2014. The access road is almost complete and a contract in regard to work on provision of the on-site facilities will shortly be put out to tender. Further information on this matter is provided in the response to a later question. Also, a contract for the perimeter wall will be put out to tender some time in the new year. We will then commence construction of the first of three phases, which will provide 400 cells which, as the cells are big, will provide accommodation for 700 people.
On the medium term response, significant progress has been made in regard to the extension of the Midlands Prison, which will provide 300 extra cells. It is hoped that construction will commence later this year on a new accommodation block at the Portlaoise Prison complex, which will provide 300 spaces. I recently opened a new wing at Wheatfield Prison, which is a credit to all concerned. It is the most modern prison facility in Europe. As far as I can recall, the wing provides more than 100 new spaces. The conversion of an administrative building on the Dóchas site into new prison accommodation will provide 70 extra spaces and renovation of an unused landing at Limerick female prison has provided an extra 14 cells with in-cell sanitation.
In the short term, we have changed the legislation to try to prevent people being sent to prison for non-payment of civil debt and fines under the Fines Act.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has not introduced garnishee orders.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Leaving aside Thornton Hall and whether the Minister or I will ever see it completed, is the Minister satisfied that it is the correct thrust of policy to seek to continue to provide more prison cells? Why are we not dealing with the situation of minor offenders not being incarcerated in prison? Why are we not dealing with the situation of more prisoners being incarcerated in open prisons, which are significantly cheaper per prisoner than is the closed prison regime of which the Minister has spoken?
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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It is the case that numbers have risen exponentially during the past number of years. This is as a result of there being more Garda and Garda activity on the streets. Garda numbers have increased from 11,500 to 14,600.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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It is evidence of more crime.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps Deputy Rabbitte is dense. The fact that there are more Garda on the streets means there is more Garda, court and judicial activity. The increase in the number of cases before the District Court is as a result of increased activity and investment.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Do I take it then that the way to reduce crime is to reduce the number of judges and gardaí?
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Given this, many more people are being convicted. It is the case that-----
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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More people are banged up.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The people are being convicted because they have committed a crime.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Please allow the Minister to continue with interruption.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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-----as much as possible in regard to young people is being done. There are 100 juvenile diversion projects in place around the country to try to divert young people away from crime.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We are well over time on this question.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Ultimately, if a young person commits a crime he or she will be sent to prison. Plans are progressing on the provision of a new detention centre for those under 18 at Oberstown. How many prisoners who should currently feature in jail as part of the figures the Minister has given Deputy O'Keeffe are absconding? There were 401 absconding prisoners as of September as far as I can recollect. Is that still the number?
Why was a new circular issued by him to the Prison Service indicating that when people were brought to prison and arrested for non-payment of finds, they should literally be taken in the front door, their names and addresses taken and then released without ever being placed in a cell in order that they would not feature on the list of those on temporary release? Does the Minister agree that such an approach says to any person in this State on whom a fine is imposed with the alternative of a prison sentence that whether he or she pays it in full, partly pays it or pays none of it, there will be no consequences and he or she has complete impunity? The Minister's actions in this area have brought the criminal justice system into disrepute, they are a waste of time for the Garda, the courts, court clerks and the Prison Service and they are a total and utter disgrace.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy's point is made. We are well over time again.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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At any time, there are a number of people who have absconded for whatever reason. For example, people who are due to report to a Garda station are regarded as having breached the warrant issued if they fail to do so and every effort is made by the Garda to apprehend them. That has always been the case, no matter who has been in office.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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How many have absconded? Is it more or less than 400?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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That is not part of the question asked.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have the figures. The Deputy did not ask that question.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Minister does not care that people have absconded.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy should allow the Minister to conclude.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I would have thought that is a basic question the Minister would know the answer to.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy should allow the Minister to speak.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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If I was Minister for Justice and Law Reform, I would want to know how many prisoners had walked out of prisoner----
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy will not ignore the Chair. I call the Minister to conclude.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I have forgotten the other issue because of the interruptions.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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We have passed an innovative Fines Act which will commence------
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is not excluding people who are arrested-----
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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There is no point in asking a question if the Deputy will not listen to the answer.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, we know about the Minister's Fines Act. I have asked about a different issue. Garda time is being wasted as patrol cars drive people to Mountjoy Prison. They are then sent home again and they never have to pay their fine. It is a farce.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I have already said the Deputy will not ignore the Chair. On the next occasion, I will ask him to leave the House.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is engaging in fiction again.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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It is the Minister's favourite pursuit.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I hope the Deputy has not arrived into the House to add to the disorder.