Dáil debates

Wednesday, 17 November 2010

10:30 am

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We all know our country has serious economic difficulties, but before I ask my question of the Taoiseach, I am sure the House will join me in expressing the condolences and sympathy of everybody here on the unspeakable grief inflicted on two communities in Ballycotton and Newcastle West. These are tragedies in respect of which words are not adequate.

We have been told by the Taoiseach and members of his Government on more than one occasion that the bank bailout, for which the taxpayer has paid, was the cheapest, most effective and best. We were told time and again that no outside help was needed and that our country could manage its way out of our difficulties. We had the spectre of not one but two Cabinet Ministers telling us that discussions and talks about technicalities and conditions at European level were fiction. The Taoiseach knew nothing about it and no Minister knew anything about it; the line was that if it was going on they had not heard about it.

This morning I heard the Minister for Finance say that where assistance might be forthcoming from Europe it is important that those involved in that assistance should be given the full facts. This House was never given the full facts nor were the people. Now we are told it is all about structural deficiencies in the banking system despite the fact that time and again the Government claimed everything was now fine. We heard about green shoots, coming out of the tunnel, being on the way up and on the way back, and that what was good for Fianna Fáil was good for the country, but we now know the truth. The white flag has been raised and the towel has been thrown in. Like the prowler waves off the west coast-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Does the Deputy have a question?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----they are coming in on Thursday. They are not coming in here to say: "Well done Brians. Well done lads. Keep at it. You're doing a great job." They are coming here effectively to dictate the terms of a bailout to the Government. I wish to ask the Taoiseach one straight question. Does he believe that it is now possible for this country to move on without the assistance of a European bailout?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I join the Deputy in the sympathies expressed to the bereaved families in yesterday's appalling tragedies in Cork and Limerick. Our sympathies go to the families.

Unfortunately as I was saying yesterday day in and day out there is an attempt to have politics as usual from Deputy Kenny in regard to finding some means-----

Photo of Shane McEnteeShane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should tell the people the truth.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy McEntee-----

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----of suggesting there is less than full transparency regarding these matters.

Photo of Shane McEnteeShane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach deceived us.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We cannot have a proper discussion on Leaders' Questions if the Deputy is just going to carry on like that.

Photo of Paul Connaughton  SnrPaul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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It is hard to listen to this.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Let us just listen to the situation and deal with the matter properly. The Deputies opposite should try to behave with some degree of seriousness.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Behaviour is a moot point.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the statement yesterday, I want to make it very clear that there has been no dictation to anybody. What we are involved in here is working with colleagues in respect of currency problems and euro issue problems that are affecting Ireland and other countries, and particularly affecting Ireland at the moment. Regarding what was said yesterday evening, there is full support from European colleagues in respect of all the policy initiatives the Government has taken to address these issues; that needs to be said. We now want to concentrate on -----

Photo of Pádraic McCormackPádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The truth.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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----- in a focused way over coming days sitting down to see in what way assistance can be provided to ensure that these issues are dealt with properly and appropriately in present circumstances. There has been no question of the Government - as was being stated all over the weekend - being in a negotiation for a bailout. Those sorts of pejorative terms do not assist either. Very simply we are working with colleagues in respect of issues that are arising in the euro area and are affecting Ireland. We want to work with them to see in what way we can address those issues.

Photo of Joe CostelloJoe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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So they can bail us out.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is the situation we are facing. If we are not prepared to sit down and deal with those issues and work with them in analysing the structural issues arising and dealing with them we will not be in a position to solve the problem. The important point about moving on is building on the policy initiatives we have already taken. On banking, it relates to the guarantee, the capitalisation and the segregation of assets, all of which are supported by the euro area group. On our fiscal policy and how we can proceed in the context of our four-year plan and the budget, it is about sitting down with them in coming days and dealing with the issues as they arise.

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Built on the shifting sands of Anglo Irish Bank.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach did not answer the straight question I asked him. Does he believe it is possible for this country to move forward without assistance now from a European bailout? He did not answer that question but went off on tangents again about discussions on the economy and all the rest of it. The point is that the banking policy of the Government and particularly of the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, has been a catastrophic failure. The Taoiseach did not tell the people the truth when the Government introduced the banking guarantee here in the first place because it covered every conceivable loss with its blanket guarantee. The Taoiseach has always told us that he accepts responsibility for his actions in politics. Does he accept that his banking policy has been a catastrophic failure? These people from the IMF, the European Commission and the European Central Bank are not coming here on Thursday-----

Photo of Joe CostelloJoe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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For a bit of a break.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----to say: "Hello, keep at it." We know that when moneys such as this become available from the fund, they come with a specific set of policy conditions, a memorandum of understanding, a generally accepted 5% annual interest rate, a 3% administration fee on top of that and strict conditions. That is what they are coming here to talk about and to dictate to the Government next Thursday. These discussions will probably continue until the Taoiseach decides to publish the four-year fiscal plan, and the money that will be on offer will be made available whenever he decides to trigger it.

I asked the Taoiseach if he accepted that the country can manage into the future without this money from Europe, but he did not answer my question. As I said previously, there is something the Taoiseach can still do. There is still time to buy credibility and belief in our country. The people are exasperated and frustrated beyond belief that there is neither clarity nor structure or plan for what the Government is doing. Two Ministers were on national television in the last few days saying this report was a work of fiction and fantasy. However, we know the truth, that they are about to arrive in Dublin Airport on Thursday to have real discussions about the facts.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, there is limited time for Leaders' Questions.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I understand that.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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There is limited time for the country too.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy must ask a question.

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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The country has limited time now.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There is still time to involve the people of Ireland in this momentous decision. The Taoiseach has no mandate to negotiate with the IMF, the European Commission and the ECB in this regard. He is doing it over the people's heads because he says his way is the only way. It is not, and it is now proven to be catastrophically wrong. The Taoiseach can go to the country and let the people elect a Government with a clear majority and a clear plan and strategy to restore hope and confidence. It will be imbued with the courage and freshness of a Government that wishes to rebuild our country, give our people a future of opportunities and get them away from these waves of disillusionment. Is the Taoiseach prepared to do that in the interests of our democracy?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have been asked by Deputy Kenny to indicate the outcome of discussions which are yet to take place, which I cannot do.

Photo of Paul Connaughton  SnrPaul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Given that they were not going to take place.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Discussions will take place as outlined in the statement. It speaks about engaging in a short and focused consultation with the European Commission, the ECB and the IMF in order to determine the best way to provide any necessary support to address market risks, especially as regards the banking sector, in the context of the four-year budgetary plan and the forthcoming budget. That is what was agreed last night and those discussions will begin tomorrow. When those discussions have been concluded people will have had an opportunity to examine and discuss all the issues. It is important that everybody understands the implications of any proposals and that they are thought through. That is the Government's position. The Government will not formally be involved in engaging in a facility or making a decision of that type without that preparatory work being done, so we can consider whether in fact this is an issue that can be resolved in that way. However, we must work through these issues and that is precisely what we are doing.

With regard to the Deputy's second point regarding the question of credibility, there is no credibility----

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In you or your Government, that is correct.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----in suggesting that our essential national interests will be served by the uncertainty of elections, subsequent negotiations following the outcome of elections and the fact that there is not a basic agreement between the parties that wish to take control in this country-----

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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That is not true.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----after an election, if they have the mandate.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We agree you should go.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Let me say what I must say. As has been said by Commissioner Olli Rehn, the best thing that could be done-----

Photo of Alan ShatterAlan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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We should abolish democracy and have Fianna Fáil Government for the next 20 years.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----is for people to subscribe to the fact that the €6 billion adjustment must be made-----

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Where are the Green Party Ministers?

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny, the Taoiseach without interruption.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----and they should be prepared, as other parliaments are prepared to do, to support the Government when our essential national interests are at stake to ensure that the budget is taken on.

Photo of Paul Connaughton  SnrPaul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Fianna Fáil has destroyed the country.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We heard from the other party leader last Friday. When he was asked if he would take the decisions, he said "No" but that if somebody else takes them he would not renege on them.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is in the driving seat but he is not driving.

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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It is fiction on a Monday and faction on a Thursday.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we have ciúnas for Deputy Gilmore?

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I join Deputy Kenny and the Taoiseach in extending my sympathy and that of the Labour Party to the families of the people who suffered the tragedies in Ballycotton and Newcastle West and to the local communities in those areas.

The Taoiseach heard from me on 30 September 2008, when I told him that giving the blanket guarantee to the banks was handing over the deeds of the country to the banks. Now we know the truth of it. The deeds are being called in. It is time for the Taoiseach to stop the pretence. All weekend we heard nothing but pretence from the Government and its Ministers. It was pretence that nothing was happening. The Minister for Justice and Law Reform said it was fiction. Another Minister said nothing was happening, while another said that if anything was happening, he did not know about it. However, it was quite clear that the Government was already engaged in discussions with European institutions in respect of some type of bailout, assistance or whatever term the Taoiseach chooses to apply to it now.

We are getting more of the pretence today. We are being told it is not the State that is involved but the banks, even though the banks and the State are virtually one and the same thing as a result of the guarantee. We are told it is not Ireland that is the issue but the eurozone and that everybody is trying to save it. All of that is pretence. We know the officers of the European Commission and the ECB are here and that the officials from the IMF are on their way. They are not coming to do their Christmas shopping, but to have discussions with the Government, as the Taoiseach acknowledged in his reply.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy ask a question?

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I will. As the Taoiseach put it, they are discussions about the best way to provide support and assistance. It is now no longer about what they are here for but about the best way to achieve it.

I have some questions about the process which is clearly under way and was under way even when Ministers were denying it. What is on the agenda for the discussions with the European Commission, the ECB and the IMF? Who will conduct those discussions? Will they be conducted at official level or ministerial level? If they are conducted at official level, what Departments will be involved? The Taoiseach said he wished to work his way through this process. Will he just go with the flow of it or does the Government have an objective? He said he cannot predict the outcome and I accept that. He cannot predict the outcome, but he can tell us the outcome the Government intends to secure from this process. What is its objective in this process and what outcome does it wish to achieve for this country?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will reply to the issues the Deputy raised seriatim. The first was the issue of the bank guarantee. I do not wish to go over that again other than to refer everyone-----

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Sure, you do not.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No. I refer everybody to the report of the Governor of the Central Bank. It is a dispassionate appraisal of the situation.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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He condemned the blanket guarantee.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Unfortunately, it must be said time and again, but I refer-----

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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He condemned the blanket guarantee.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Now I am interrupted when I make a point.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Burton, can we hear the Taoiseach without interruption?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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He did not. He made it very clear that an extensive guarantee was required. He also makes it clear that had I accepted the Deputy's advice on that day in September 2008 and not put the guarantee in place, the banks would have closed in a matter of days and there would have been economic implosion in this country.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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They are not open now.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I refer Members to the report. If the Deputy wishes to answer with a quibble relating to the issue of subordinated debt, as he has been trying to do ever since, that makes up 3.3% of the total guarantee involved. That does not get the Deputy off the hook in terms of what his position was and is.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Where was the Taoiseach in March 2008?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has derived much political advantage out of the suggestion that it was possible to save our economic and banking systems in the absence of that guarantee. I do not seek to be involved in an argument every day of the week about this. I refer to the deliberations of the report of Professor Honohan, the Governor of the Central Bank, in regard to that matter. It is clear that the argument is very much in favour of the Government, almost to the point that it is beyond dispute. Yet, because there is plenty of political currency in this country in continuing to go on with the proposal, the Opposition continue to throw it out there because it gets it plenty of popular support. The fact of the matter is that, whether we like it or not, the guarantee was necessary. The euro group, in its statement last night, confirmed that the policies that we have taken in an effort to provide the necessary stability is supported by all in the euro group, not by what Deputy Gilmore has to say but by what this Government has had to do.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is clear-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we have the Taoiseach without interruption, please?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is clear. The statement reads, "We welcome the measures taken today by Ireland to deal with issues in its banking sector via guarantees, recapitalisation and asset segregation and these measures have helped to support the Irish banking sector at a time of great dislocation. However, market conditions have not normalised and pressures remain, giving rise to concerns that further reforms-----

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Governments do not criticise each other.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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What else could they say?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----and stabilisation measures may be appropriate". That is the situation. If the alternative policy as promulgated by the Labour Party since September 2008, namely, that we should not have put that guarantee in place was implemented-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we have the Taoiseach without interruption, please?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----it is clear from the report of the Governor of the Central Bank that this economy would have imploded with a level of economic and social cost which he was not in a position to calculate.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will leave that argument there because it is not germane to the questions asked. It was a preparatory preface remark put in by Deputy Gilmore, which he often includes, and I wanted to clear that up. It is supported by the euro group, as distinct from his position.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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They would say that.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am explaining the situation. The report is there if the Deputy wants to read it. In regard to the matters before us today, the people who will be involved from Ireland's point of view tomorrow at an official level will be the Central Bank, the Department of Finance and the Financial Regulator.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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What about the NTMA?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As I said, those are the people involved. The NTMA will also attend, if required. Officials are coming over tomorrow and have been very clear. There has been constructive engagement with them at all times throughout all the processes on the issues that affected Ireland and the euro area since this crisis began. That will continue and we will provide all the information needed because it is important that everyone, in terms of analysing the situation and coming up with solutions to the problem, is armed with all the facts. We will make sure that is the case. If there are any queries or questions from any of the statutory bodies they will be dealt with.

Photo of Paul Connaughton  SnrPaul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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What about the Ministers last week?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As I said on Monday, there was an ECOFIN meeting last night and there will be discussions following that today which will start tomorrow. That will go on until such time as they will be able to bring forward proposals over the coming days. I am not going to put a timeframe on that but they are urgent and focused and will be intensive. Again, I cannot give an outcome as to the timeframe but it is an urgent issue with which we are dealing.

In the meantime, from the point of the view of the public I want to make clear that while the technical discussions take place there is no issue regarding their position with the banks. The banks are fully supported by the European Central Bank. All our deposits are guaranteed. There is no problem whatsoever while the discussions are ongoing and people need to know that as a matter of fact. People need to be reassured on that front, as a practical and pragmatic matter.

The objective is as set out in the statement. We are seeking to ensure that we provide the necessary support to address market risk, especially with regard to the banking sector, in the context of the four year budgetary plan and the upcoming budget. Most countries in the developed world have had to provide bank guarantees and interventions in order to ensure that the financial system was stabilised. The initiatives we took have been supported by the European Union and approved by it. In some cases its prior or subsequent approval was required.

Many people went ahead with bank guarantees in the aftermath of what we had to do. It is important that people understand that the idea that there is any suggestion of bad faith in the Government is not true. I was told this last Friday; when I was told I was negotiating for a bailout I said we certainly are not, and we have made no such application. Other Ministers confirmed that throughout the weekend.

Photo of Alan ShatterAlan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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You were engaged in discussions and concealed that.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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All of them referred to the fact that discussions were taking place at official level on the euro area issues generally and in preparation for the meetings which are now taking place on Tuesday and Wednesday. That is the normal function of officials in the engagement which takes place between us and EU institutions and other member states.

The issue for us today arises out of the meeting at which were very ably represented by the Minister for Finance yesterday. As we have obligations under the euro currency regime we share our sovereignty with these countries. It is in every countries' interest that there be stability in the euro area and that we deal with the market dislocation which has taken place and the need to ensure that banks get access to the markets for the forms which they need in order to continue with the business of banking in this country. That is important and is what we are trying to address.

However, that is not to say, as suggested by Deputy Kenny, that the banking policies were catastrophic, far from it. Without those banking policies-----

A Deputy:

The IMF is at the door.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----we would have had the implosion of this country, in economic terms, in September 2008. Those are the facts. The fact is that there is support for the guarantee system because it has been replicated in other countries. There is support for capitalisation which is necessary when one has the sort of losses which were racked up.

Photo of Emmet StaggEmmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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I thought there was a limit to Leaders' Questions.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is also important for the segregation of the NAMA exercise. The leader of Fine Gael suggested the banking policy he has is credible. He could not even get the support of the former leader of his party for his banking policy.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Could we have Deputy Gilmore?

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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What about-----

(Interruptions).

Could we have Deputy Gilmore?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Go now, go. Leave.

11:00 am

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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There will be plenty of time for the Taoiseach and I to argue about who was right and wrong in respect of our judgments on the bank guarantee which tied the banks to the State and which has resulted in the State being dragged into the quagmire. We will come back to that. We are now in a situation where European institutions and the IMF are knocking on the door; they are on their way. The Taoiseach is continuing, with the greatest of respect, to treat the Irish people as though they do not understand this . They do understand it and they understand its significance.

I am trying to establish the Government's position. I read the statement, I know from where they are coming and I can picture the kind of discussions which are likely to take place. There is no point pretending this is some kind of an exercise being done by a few PhD students who have come here just tried to establish some information. This is serious. I do not want the kind of general exposition which the Taoiseach has just given us. I want to know the Government's position with regard to the intended outcome of these discussions.

Is it the case that the provision of additional money for the bank is to be discussed? If that is the case, were we not told in September that we had received the final figure in respect of support for the banks? Is it now the case that the final figure is no longer the final figure? Can the Taoiseach give us some indication as to the extent of the level of assistance which will be required for the banks? I ask that question because I am aware that figures are already in circulation in the media about the possible extent of the support which the banks require.

Does the Taoiseach expect that conditions will be discussed with the IMF and the European institutions which will apply to the State? Will the Government and its successors have to be committed to such conditions in respect of public policy and budgetary matters in return for whatever assistance is being provided for the banks?

Can the Taoiseach tell the House what is the Government's objective? What is the Taoiseach's intended outcome from those discussions? What are his bottom lines in respect of those discussions and, in particular, in respect of conditions that might be attached to the State?

It is bad enough that for the last week we have had an entire pretence from the Government that this was not happening at all, there were going to be no discussions, there was no assistance, nobody was talking to anybody and nobody knew anything about the IMF, the EU or the ECB. It was all fiction according to the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern. We have had enough of that now.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We have had enough of your lip.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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We know what is happening, so we want to know what is the Government's position on this. What is its negotiating position and what is the intended objective and outcome from those discussions.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I reiterate that the statements made by Ministers last week and since then have been firmly based on the fact that we were not involved in negotiations and we are still not involved in negotiations.

Photo of Pádraic McCormackPádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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For God's sake.

Photo of Alan ShatterAlan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is engaging in semantics now.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputy thinks it is in the essential national interest of this country for me, as head of Government, to indicate what our negotiating position is before negotiations have even begun or before we have agreed to enter into them - pending these discussions that have to take place on a whole range of technical issues including regulation, structure and others - then he is not very clever.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It is in the interests of the country to be straight with us.

Photo of Pádraic McCormackPádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The other day, the Taoiseach said there were no discussions.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach without interruption, please.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has just agreed that it is not possible for me to give a predication of the outcome of these discussions which have not begun. If I may, I wish to answer the Deputy's other question on the Government's objective. As outlined in that statement, the objective is simply to ensure, as quickly as possible, that we have a banking system that can access funds on the open market and that those markets are providing funds to the banking system not only in Ireland but to the euro area generally at prices which are reasonable, affordable and ensure that they can be engines for future recovery on the basis of moneys and interest rates at which those moneys will be provided. That is clearly the overall macro-economic objective of this Government concerning these matters. This issue is affecting the eurozone across Europe, for us particularly but for others as well.

We will sit down with those colleagues in a constructive and open manner to ensure that the analysis is correct and we get an outcome that will ensure that the banking system functions in this country. It is true, as the Deputy said earlier, that we had a bank guarantee. He made the point as if it was something that was not correct. Yes, we did have a guarantee for the reasons I have given - to avoid an implosion of this economy in September 2008. The fact of the matter is that other countries have had to do that also. We are not unique in that respect.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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They are not in the mess we are.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We have segregated the assets in a transparent manner. When asked about it in an interview this morning, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, said that discussions have taken place in the last couple of days regarding some of these technical issues. There is a growing acceptance of the validity of the analysis that was done by the Financial Regulator in respect of those assessments. The stress tests undertaken by the Financial Regulator in respect of the banks in this country were perhaps even more rigorous than what was prescribed concerning European banking generally under the EU exercise. All of that is accepted and understood by those with whom we are engaged.

Photo of Paul Connaughton  SnrPaul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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We will know about that next week.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Instead of people deciding that these issues are not being properly addressed, they should realise that they are being properly addressed. I have outlined the importance of the discussions taking place in an urgent and focused manner. We will conduct that analysis in an open and constructive way. Our people are available to discuss that with those who will come over from the ECB, the IMF and elsewhere. Whatever is in the essential interests of this country to do to bring about stability, growth and recovery, and ensure that the banking system will function openly as soon as possible on the market, would be the objective of any Government. In doing all of that we will seek to protect our essential national interests and to ensure that the outcome is such that the country's sovereignty and sovereign debt is not unduly imposed upon with a burden it cannot bear. That is what we will do and we will do so because that is the important task facing this Government.

Photo of Pádraic McCormackPádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach has sold out.

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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It is a bit late now.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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To assist in that, this Parliament can ensure that the four-year plan and the budget - as supported by Europe and other jurisdictions at the moment - are passed so that the fiscal strategy is put through. It is essential for the future of this country that it is.

Photo of Alan ShatterAlan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Does the Taoiseach know what the four-year plan is?