Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Question 4: To ask the Minister for Justice and Law Reform the steps being taken to prevent family members of bank employees being taken hostage and bank employees being coerced into facilitating bank robberies and if he regards the existing protocols applicable to such circumstances and training afforded to bank employees as adequate; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [35530/10]

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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This is a despicable type of crime. The abduction and false imprisonment of a person's family or friends, in order to coerce them into assisting with a robbery, is a particularly abhorrent type of crime. The trauma visited on the innocent victims involved by heartless criminals can be only imagined by the rest of us. I know my contempt for those responsible will be shared by Members of the House and by the wider public.

There are agreed response procedures in place for dealing with such incidents. Regular meetings are held between the Garda Síochána and financial institutions to discuss bank security issues and in particular kidnap prevention and response protocols. While the Garda Síochána does not as a matter of policy and for obvious security reasons disclose these, they typically include the establishment of crisis management teams and protocols designed primarily to ensure the safe return of those persons held captive when such an incident happens. Thereafter securing the arrest and prosecution of those involved becomes the Garda priority.

Clearly it is incumbent upon the banks and financial institutions to do everything possible to prevent these robberies. That means the protocols must be followed and systems put in place to ensure that, for example, it is not possible for employees who have been placed under terrible duress to be in a position to access large amounts of cash. I do not blame employees who are acting under such duress, their safety and that of their families and friends is paramount. I do, however, want to reiterate that is the Garda priority too. The safety of people can be best assured by involving the gardaí as quickly as possible when these incidents take place. When the protocols are followed the gardaí are given a great advantage in their efforts to foil these crimes and arrest those responsible. That has been proven to be the case. It is only by rendering these robberies unsuccessful that we will stop them happening, and thereby protect innocent employees and their loved ones from being caught up in them in the future.

The training given to employees of financial institutions is in the first instance a matter for the financial institutions and I have emphasised to them their responsibilities in this regard. The gardaí will assist in this in whatever way they can. I have made clear the importance I attach to ensuring that staff members are fully trained and given the best advice on matters of safety and security. To this end, advice on personal security for staff members and on systems and processes for the conveyance, storage and dispersal of cash is provided by the Garda Síochána on an ongoing basis and is subject to regular review. I should mention that I have held discussions with the IBOA, the representative organisation for staff in the financial services sector, to make sure their concerns are heard and taken on board.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I agree with the Minister that this is a most despicable form of crime but I suggest to him that in circumstances in which the protocols were complied with by a bank and banking officials, it is equally despicable to implicitly blame the victims of the crime for any event that occurred. Would the Minister acknowledge that in the recent tiger kidnapping in Clondalkin AIB, bank officials fully complied with the protocols, despite the Minister insinuating otherwise to the press? Is the Minister concerned that the content of these protocols are now known to criminal gangs, that criminal gangs are monitoring the manner in which the protocols are being applied and that they are doing so is undermining their effectiveness? Is he concerned about the context of that particular despicable event, where the gardaí took an undue amount of time after being notified to attend the bank where the event occurred?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with the Deputy that these are despicable crimes but I do not agree that I in any way insinuated that people did not adhere to the protocols. I have been assiduous in saying that, while the protocols are there, it is easy for us to talk about compliance with protocols.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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There was compliance in this case but the implication was that there was not.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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If we were in the situation any of these people were put in, God only knows how we would react. It is proven that any time these protocols have been adhered to, the operation has ended successfully. When they have not been complied with, for whatever reason, there has been an unsuccessful operation.

The protocols are not used on their own in these instances. I would not want the message to go from the Dáil that people are monitoring these protocols or that the Garda Síochána did not react quickly in any instance. I have seen the system it has set up to provide a rapid response once it receives a call. The difficulty is that the call is sometimes made after the bird has flown.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I will again ask whether the Minister is concerned that the detail of the protocols is known by criminal gangs? Does he acknowledge that his suggestion of a kidnap tax immediately after the horrendous event in Clondalkin on the basis that we should start charging people for money coming out of holes in the wall was asinine and inappropriate? It would have no impact of any description in reducing the number of these events or placing bank officials in better safety. Will he confirm to the House that in no circumstances will the Government introduce a kidnap tax or encourage banks to levy additional charges on people withdrawing their own funds?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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At no stage did I suggest a kidnap tax or an increase in taxation.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I have the quotation with me. The Minister was widely quoted.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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It is disappointing that we in this country cannot have a rational discussion on a matter of life and death for bank officials. I have met the Irish Bank Officials Association, IBOA, bank managements and the Garda Síochána. They told me that one of the difficulties highlighted by these incidents is the preponderance of cash in our banks and society. The more cash, the more opportunities for burglars and robbers. It is axiomatic. The less cash in the system, the fewer the opportunities for the robbers.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Thanks to the Government there is a great deal less cash around these days for most people.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I was trying to make a point. Given that our society is on the other side of the scale in terms of its level of cash, we as a society must examine the issue.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Minister proposed people should pay to access their money.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I most certainly did not.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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That is untrue.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Minister should bring his reply to a conclusion.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The shrill, hysterical, incorrect and disingenuous press statements by Deputy Shatter and his like will not-----

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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There are reporters outside the House who know exactly what the Minister stated.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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-----solve one iota of the difficulties posed to the bank staff who must live with this danger on a daily basis. I was trying to make a genuine point in response to the suggestion that there might have been a better way to go about this. Deputy Shatter stated that criminals were going from issue to issue. The number of tiger kidnappings is significant, but that was not the case heretofore.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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What about the security of the protocols?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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ATM machines were being raided by robbers.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We must move on to the next question. We have gone well over time on this question.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Due to changes in protocols and operations and through working with the PSNI, such raids are not as frequent as they once were. Regarding tiger kidnappings-----

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We must move on.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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-----criminals are moving down the chain of bank staff. It is the case that this crime is a moving target, but it would be disingenuous of the Deputy or anyone to imply-----

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Minister should not ignore the Chair.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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-----that I was suggesting additional taxation on people in this day and age.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Minister stated it twice that day. He embarrassed himself.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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To be honest, it does Deputy Shatter no-----

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will adjourn the House. If the Minister and the Deputy decide to have a bilateral discussion, they can have it elsewhere because I will not have the House made a mockery of. Both Members will have regard to the Chair or we will adjourn.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Question 5: To ask the Minister for Justice and Law Reform if his attention has been drawn to reports that criminal gang members or dissident Republicans have for a number of years coerced owners of public houses and nightclubs to use their services for the supply of doormen; if he believes these reports are accurate; the steps, if any, that have been taken to ensure owners of licensed premises and nightclubs are not coerced to use such services and do not have money extorted from them; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [35531/10]

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I am informed that the Garda Síochána is aware of reports which indicate continuing efforts by dissident groups and criminal networks to become involved in the security industry. As is the case with all incidents of criminality that are reported or become known to the Garda, such incidents relating to the operation of licensed premises or nightclubs are the subject of Garda investigation and an investigation file is submitted to the law officers. It would be inappropriate for me to make any comment at this time regarding any such investigations.

The Private Security Authority, PSA, is the regulatory body with responsibility for regulating and licensing the private security industry. One of the primary reasons for its establishment in 2005 was to prevent undesirable people becoming involved in the security business. The vetting of applicants and, in the case of contractor licensing, the checking of criminal records by the Garda is an integral part of this licensing process. The Garda liaises closely with the authority in assisting it in discharging its statutory functions, particularly in respect of complaints received, breaches of the relevant legislative provisions and the provision of security clearance for applications for licences. An assistant commissioner of the Garda is on the board of the PSA.

I am determined that all actions will be taken to prevent any attempt by illegal organisations to use legitimate businesses, such as those licensed by the authority, to further their criminal activities. I have arranged a three-way meeting to take place shortly at a senior level between my officials, the authority and the Garda that will consider whether anything further can be done in this regard.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Does the Minister accept that, in some locations in this city, there are individuals acting as door men granting or denying access to licensed premises or pubs who are basically thugs? Does he acknowledge the ongoing turf war between criminal gangs and former or current dissidents to control who will be given this type of security business? Does he acknowledge that the war is resulting in lives being placed at serious risk? What action is he taking to provide protection to the owners of nightclubs and pubs who have been forced into the predicament of having no choice but to recruit such individuals for fear of their premises being placed at risk, their businesses being destroyed and their custom evaporating?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Any nightclub owner with difficulties in this regard must communicate with the Garda Síochána, which will act on the complaint as the rightful body to respond.

When the Oireachtas passed the Act in 2004, it did not decide that everyone with a criminal record should be barred from working in the private security area. Rather, it took a more sensible approach because criminal records can be acquired for relatively small offences. Deputy Shatter referred to people on the doors as thugs. I take it he was not referring to everyone as such.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Of course not.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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However, there may be people with criminal records who are using force in some instances. The PSA is the regulatory authority in this respect. The individual and the contractor must be licensed. Under section 22 of the Act, the authority shall not issue a licence to someone who "is not a fit and proper person to provide a security service". Since its inception, approximately 36,000 checks of criminal records have been conducted by the Garda on behalf of the PSA.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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In the interests of saving lives and preserving law and order, the Garda should be encouraged not to wait for a complaint from a pub or nightclub owner who may fear for his or her personal safety. The Garda should actively visit some of the premises in question with a view to identifying and speaking with individuals employed as bouncers in order to check their backgrounds and bona fides. It should take whatever action is necessary to bring the reported turf war between criminal gangs and dissident republicans to a rapid end and to initiate any prosecution that might be required.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Garda has a number of specialist units that investigate issues like this constantly. It needs no encouragement from me.