Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Question 32: To ask the Minister for Justice and Law Reform his plans to address prison overcrowding in the short term; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [28667/10]

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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My first concern as Minister for Justice and Law Reform is public safety. In that regard the fact that the number of serious criminals behind bars serving two years' imprisonment or more increased by over 600 between 2007 and 2009 is a cause of commendation of An Garda Síochána whose vigilance has resulted in the arrest and successful prosecution of these offenders. This trend has been continuing in 2010.

This sudden and unexpectedly large increase has, however, put a lot of pressure on the prison system and there will be problems before sufficient new prison spaces can be constructed and brought into operation. I emphasise that more than 80% of the sentenced prisoner population in custody are serving sentences of 12 months or more. It would, therefore, be grossly misleading to suggest that overcrowding is caused by imprisonment of minor offenders or that the problem can be resolved overnight by greater use of alternatives to custody.

The Irish Prison Service has been engaged in an extensive programme of investment in prisons infrastructure which has involved both the modernisation of the existing estate and the provision of extra prison spaces. Since 1997, close to 1,800 new prison spaces have come on stream in the prison system. These include the new prisons in Castlerea, the midlands and Cloverhill, the Dóchas Centre and new accommodation in Limerick, Portlaoise and Castlerea prisons and at the open centres in Shelton Abbey and Loughan House. By any standard this is a significant level of investment aimed at modernising and enhancing the facilities we can provide to our prison population.

Current projects will see in excess 200 prison spaces provided in the short term by means of the opening of a new block in Wheatfield. Also in the short term, work is due to commence on converting an administrative building on the Dóchas site into a new accommodation block. This accommodation will provide approximately 50 spaces later this year. In addition, we hope to proceed in late 2010 with a new accommodation block in the Portlaoise-Midlands prisons complex which will provide 300 prison spaces in the medium term.

The Government is fully committed to developing a new prison campus at Thornton Hall, County Dublin, to replace the entire Mountjoy Prison campus. The new prison facility will provide accommodation for 1,400 cells with operational flexibility to accommodate up to 2,200 in a range of security settings. The development is now proceeding on a phased basis and will, I believe, provide accommodation that is comparable with best international practice.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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We on this side of the House have raised this issue continually over the past 18 months. The crisis was flagged to the Minister and I remind him of his comments in September 2009 on the publication of a most damning report on the Irish prison system by Judge Michael Reilly, the inspector of prisons. Judge Reilly spoke about prisons being dangerous and unsafe. In response, the Minister said numbers in Mountjoy Prison would be kept below 600, in so far as that was practicable. The current data on bed capacity in Mountjoy show prisoner numbers to be in excess of 70 above the dangerous level, as estimated by Judge Reilly.

Does the Minister regard it as acceptable that inmates in Mountjoy are sleeping on benches, in large communal cells, in offices and in the reception area? Prisoners are occupying the shower areas in the basement of the prison. Mountjoy is in a most dangerous condition not only for prisoners, but for the staff working on a full-time basis. It is inhumane and unacceptable to have prisoners sleeping in a sitting-up position because of overcrowding and lack of space.

I ask the Minister, notwithstanding what he said in response to Deputy Rabitte's question about Thornton Hall, that this crisis not await developments in Thornton Hall, dates unknown. He mentioned extra prison space in other parts of the country but both he and his Department are oblivious to what is needed as root and branch reform of the role and function of our prisons because of the adherence of this and successive Governments over the years to the Victorian concept of prison in society.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I will not go over the record of the Opposition in Government-----

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I asked the Minister to deal with this crisis now because it is deteriorating on a monthly basis.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Despite the perception the Deputy sometimes peddles, we are not putting girl guides into prisons. More than 80% of those in prison are there for sentences of 12 months or more. They are not people languishing in prison who should not be there. Dangerous people are in prison who should not be on the streets. There has been a dramatic increase in the numbers going into prison, a result, it must be said, of increased Garda activity, longer custodial sentences and increased court activity. The significant increase in the number of persons being committed to prison since 2007 with sentences of two or more years in prison is driving up the prison population. This situation relates mainly to people who are being convicted in the Circuit Court, not the District Court. The majority of those convicted in the Circuit Court relate to very serious crimes involving property, drugs and firearms. There has been a modest increase in the use by judges of longer sentences but only 60% of those found guilty in the Circuit Court receive a prison sentence. However, there has been a most significant increase in the total number of cases being brought before and processed in the Circuit Court, which again suggests these are serious criminals or people being convicted of serious offences.

Although there is a difficulty in our prisons in that there is slightly above 100% capacity, one may compare this figure to Belgium at 125%, France at 131%, Italy at 130% and Spain at 141%. I was in Mountjoy Prison some weeks ago and although what I saw was an old prison - that is one of the reasons the Government decided to build a new prison at Thornton Hall - some of the stories I have heard and some of those the Deputy peddled in the House today do not bear up.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I would not call it peddling.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I suggest the Deputy goes to Mountjoy to see for himself. I spoke to the new Governor and can assure the Deputy that the situation that pertained previously will no longer pertain in that prison because I am assured by the new Governor and management that changes will be and are being made there in the way the prison is being run.

Since the Deputy gave those figures of 70 above the suggested limit of 600 spaces a new block has been opened in Mountjoy Prison where more than 50 people have taken up occupancy. When I was there I saw none of what was mentioned. I had free rein of the prison and complete freedom to speak to any prisoner. Prisoners came up to me and spoke and none of them complained of the conditions. One prisoner said that as far as he was concerned the situation was "reasonable", in the circumstances.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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One prisoner said that to the Minister.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Exactly, in regard to the accommodation. He was the only person who raised any issue of accommodation with me. Nobody raised accommodation in an adverse way.

I strongly suggest to the Deputy, and to Deputy Rabbitte, that they be reasonably objective and perhaps go to Mountjoy. I invite them to do so to see the situation there. That said, as a Government we accept it is not right that a prison should be in a city centre location. That is why we made the decision we did. It should be on the periphery of the city, in order to ensure that egress and ingress of materials are stopped.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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All penal experts say the opposite.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I have no doubt. I disagree with Deputy Rabbitte.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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They all say the opposite.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy said that Thornton Hall is on the border of County Meath. It is on the periphery of Dublin.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Of course it is.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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As a brief supplementary, I say for the record of the House-----

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I know Deputy Rabbitte does not get out of the capital very often but he should do so.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I even go to Dundalk.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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-----I find it astounding that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform should come to the House and say he met a prisoner who said, "Minister, everything is all right here", that he should accept that and place it on the record of this House over and above the comments of Mr. Justice Michael Reilly who stated last September that the situation in Mountjoy was unsafe and dangerous.

I put it to the Minister that as well as the overcrowding of which he speaks, as do we, the figures actually speak for themselves. The situation is exacerbated and the entire criminal justice system brought into disrepute when there are 940 inmates, or 18% - almost one in five - of the prison population currently at large, on temporary release for no other reason than there not being sufficient prison space in the form of accommodation to house them.

I ask the Minister to accept there is a crisis under his watch. He does himself and his Government no service by saying in this Chamber that he met a prisoner in Mountjoy who said, "Keep it up, it's reasonable. Everything is all right". The Minister is refusing to accept there is a crisis of unprecedented scale in the prison system, with almost one in five prisoners out and 11 of the 15 custodial institutions of the State currently experiencing overcrowding to an unprecedented degree, giving rise to a situation where the independent inspector of prisons, a judge of some repute, nine months ago, before the crisis became as bad as it now is, is on record as saying Mountjoy is unsafe and dangerous. The Minister is happy with the situation.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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When that prisoner gets out, the Minister should appoint him to the board of Anglo Irish Bank.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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At no stage did I say the situation is ideal. I accept as valid that there is a difficulty in our prisons. Clearly, if there is over 100% occupancy there is a difficulty. Since 1997 when my party came to Government we have built 1,800 spaces which stands in comparison to anything that came previously. We continue to do that. The situation in Mountjoy Prison is not as bad as people make it out to be. Ultimately, I accept the best solution is to get out of Mountjoy to the other centre in Thornton Hall but at every twist and turn, the people on the Opposition side objected to the building of Thornton Hall and tried to find every fault with it. The Deputies opposite have some culpability in regard to this.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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It is the Opposition's fault. That is nearly as bad as the prisoner story.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputies objected at every twist and turn. I say to Deputy Flanagan-----

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Now the Minister has new legislation to-----

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy suggested we look at alternatives to custodial sentences. I agree we should - if it is possible. However, when more than 80% of the existing prison population is there for sentences of 12 months or longer, does the Deputy say we should let all those people out onto the streets?

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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They are already on them.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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A significant number of those on temporary release are those who were in prison for not paying fines. These people are there for relatively small offences.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We shall move on to Question No. 33.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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A significant number of those on temporary release are coming to the end of their sentence. Is Deputy Flanagan suggesting, for one minute, we should keep those people in jail until the very last day, then open the door and say, "Out you go"?

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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They are out after a weekend in Mountjoy.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Temporary release is a time-honoured modus operandi that attempts to rehabilitate a prisoner back into society. Prisoners are given temporary release and allowed a few overnight stays with their families so that they are well acclimatised.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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That is the principle as it should be, but it not the practice and the Minister knows it.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Yes it is the principle and it worked when Deputy Flanagan's party was in government as well.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call on the Members to stop engaging in exchanges across the floor.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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That is not the practice and the Minister knows this.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Temporary release was used by every Government in order to rehabilitate people and re-acclimatise them for society.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Minister to proceed with the answer to Question No.33. We only have five minutes left.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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We do not want to just open the door and let them go.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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It is now being abused.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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It is not being abused. I can assure the Deputy of that.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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A Cheann Comhairle, it must have been tough to put up with him over 25 years. I do not know how you did it.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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It was 23 years, by the way.