Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Question 5: To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his views on whether it is appropriate to review the operation of the Private Security Authority; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13173/10]

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The private security sector was generally unregulated prior to the introduction of the Private Security Services Act 2004 and lack of regulation was an understandable source of public concern. Since its establishment, the Private Security Authority has driven a considerable and welcome transformation of the private security industry.

The 2004 Act provides that the authority shall be independent in the exercise of its functions. The authority comprises a practising barrister or solicitor of not less than five years standing, representatives of An Garda Síochána, private security employers and employees and relevant Government interests. Accordingly, under the legislation the decision on whether to grant a licence in a particular case is solely a matter for the authority. The composition of the authority ensures that a wide range of experience is available to it in making such decisions. There is, of course, close co-operation between the authority and An Garda Síochána and, as already stated, representatives from An Garda Síochána are on the authority.

The authority commenced licensing security contractors in 2006 and this was followed by the licensing of individuals employed in the industry in 2007. At present, almost 800 licensed contractors and over 23,000 licensed individuals are operating in the security industry here. It is important to recognise the positive sea change this has brought about, in the public interest, in the operation of the private security sector.

I accept that as the authority continues its work and expands its operations within the private security sector that lessons will be learned. However, given the short period for which it has been in existence, I am of the opinion that a fundamental review of its operation would be premature at this stage.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I remind the Minister that the legislation establishing the Private Security Authority was introduced some years ago in order to bring to an end the practice whereby criminal gangsters and paramilitaries were actively involved in running the private security industry in this city and elsewhere. That legislation duly passed into law.

The Minister is correct when he states that the granting of licences is a matter for the authority. Does he agree that there is some disquiet regarding the criteria used by authority personnel in respect of the granting of licences? There is evidence to suggest that there are persons with criminal backgrounds and convictions - some of which are of a significant nature and which came about in the not too distant past - who have been granted licences and who are actively involved in the private security industry in this city. That is wrong. In light of his ongoing relationship with members of the authority, will the Minister indicate the criteria that apply in respect of persons with criminal records being granted licences?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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There are people who have criminal records who apply to the authority. The latter was given independence to exercise its functions on the basis of the criteria laid down in the legislation. I understand that the authority exercises discretion when deciding whether to issue a licence to a person with a criminal record. In doing so, it takes into account: the nature and seriousness of the offence involved; the length of time since completion of sentence; the overall interests of the public good; the relationship of the crime to the purpose of requiring a licence; the age of a person when the offence was committed; the conduct of person before and after offence; and evidence of rehabilitation.

As already stated, there are those with convictions who possess licences. The figures indicate that 50% of such convictions relate to motoring offences. Unless there is a particular reason people with convictions of that nature should not obtain licences, I do not believe they should be regarded as undesirables. However, that is a matter in respect of which the authority must make a decision.

I understand the authority has been investigating applications for licences made by individuals with convictions for more serious offences. I understand that the number of such applications is 386 and, to date, 112 of these have been refused. People are, therefore, being refused licences on the basis of their prior criminal records. Just because someone possesses a criminal record, however, he or she cannot be refused a licence per se. Obviously, the authority must decide each case on the basis of its merits.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I again put it to the Minister that it is a matter of some public disquiet that over 250 people who have serious criminal records or who failed to disclose the existence of any convictions on the appropriate form were granted licences by the Private Security Authority. I ask that he review this matter.

On a separate but related issue, the fees relating to these licences are far too high, particularly in the current economic downturn. The current cost of a licence is €2,500. In the UK, a similar licence costs €400. These costs, particularly as they relate to small business interests, are far too high. That is another reason I am asking the Minister to review the operations of the authority. We cannot have a situation whereby gangsters are operating as bouncers or are providing private security to firms and other organisations in this city and elsewhere. In disagreeing with the Minister that a review is premature I ask him to change his mind on this issue.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I do not accept that the fees are high. It is an authority which has a significant body of work in the investigation and checking of applicants with regard to whether a licence should be granted. It is right and proper that the Oireachtas has given the body its authority independently of us to make decisions. It is ironic that in the House I am always asked and criticised about issues on which the House has already decided and those on the other side of the House well know this.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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You just happen to be the Minister.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but just because one is the Minister with responsibility for justice one cannot have one's cake and eat it. People in the Opposition try to have their cake and eat it but the fact of the matter is that the Minister does not control the day-to-day operation of an organisation-----

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has the power to review.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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-----to which we ourselves gave independence and we resourced it-----

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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If it is not working one reviews it.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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-----with regard to making decisions.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The Minister knows that better than anybody.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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To a certain extent, the Deputy is asking me to change the legislation to make it even more difficult for people to get a licence, and the Deputy may be correct on that. However, he is speaking out of both sides of his mouth in that-----

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The Minister says that about everything I say.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Fine Gael supported the Spent Convictions Bill which, to his credit the Minister of State, Deputy Andrews, is bringing forward. Fine Gael proposed reducing the rehabilitation period, the period without further conviction, to be observed. It was prepared to support a proposal from the Law Society-----

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Not for paramilitaries.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Fine Gael was prepared to support a proposal from the Law Society and others to extend the scope to all offenders. At present, it is only with regard to minor offences. Fine Gael wanted to strike to record of all offenders-----

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Not for paramilitaries.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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That is the opposite of what Deputy Flanagan is trying to suggest with regard to giving licences to people. I accept there is anecdotal evidence about people in the security sector and that is the reason we introduced legislation to regulate it.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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That is what I said and you are not doing it.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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There may very well be anecdotal evidence on people who have licences and who should not have them but unfortunately we cannot go on anecdotal evidence. There may very well be circumstances in which people have substantial criminal records but because of the criteria and the discretion of the authority it may decide to grant a licence because they were convicted 30 or 40 years ago and have had no convictions since. It an area we must keep under constant review because, as Deputy Flanagan knows, the reason the Oireachtas responded to bring forward this legislation was because there was a significant underbelly of criminality in the area, or at least it was felt that was the case.