Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will call on the Deputies who tabled questions to the Minister for Foreign Affairs in the order in which they submitted their questions to my office.

Deputy Billy Timmins asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs the plans he has in place to ensure that applications for passports are processed without delay; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs if he will undertake necessary actions to end the impasse at the passport office; if he and high ranking officials in both the Department of Foreign Affairs generally and those with responsibility for the passport office itself will engage in direct dialogue with union spokespersons; if management at the passport office will also address issues within its area of responsibility, including the availability of passport printing machines and management of queues at the office; and if this will be treated as a matter of extreme urgency for the many people who are in need of having their passports renewed for planned trips over the coming days, as well as seeking a fair resolution to the matter for all workers in the passport office

Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for my late arrival in the Chamber. First, as a former public servant and as a former member of the union which is in dispute, I deeply regret what has been happening within the passport office. I believe the union has made a fundamental error. I do not make this point as a union basher as most Members who know me will know the opposite is the case. I have much time for this union and in particular for its leadership, which showed great leadership and courage during the recent referendum campaign in particular. However, I must apologise on behalf of the Department and the Government to those who have had their plans destroyed or certainly upset, as well as for the extraordinary inconvenience, suffering and frustration that has been caused by the delays in the passport service.

The second point I should make is that over its long period of operations, the passport office has been a good operation. It issues up to 600,000 passports per annum or approximately 12,000 passports per week and during peak periods, it handles approximately 20,000 passports per week. Consequently, the capacity exists and were people working to rule, it could be used to purpose.

Deputy Timmins has made a number of important propositions outside the House, for example, augmenting current staff. As he is probably aware, this would be normally the case at this time of year, but it is not currently possible. The passport service must operate to international standards, including those drawn up by international organisations such as the International Civil Aviation Organisation, ICAO, and the US Department of Homeland Security. Unfortunately, there is no room for shortcuts in the process. It must be handled in a professional way.

Since the Passport Office operates with large volumes, any curtailment of processing would soon lead to a major backlog, as we are seeing. The CPSU action has resulted in a build-up of 44,000 applications in the system. Last Friday's action was particularly regrettable, as it undoubtedly caused a considerable amount of disruption. Long delays in processing passports has resulted in a collapse of confidence in the system, a legacy with which we will all need to deal. In other countries that previously experienced a loss of confidence in their passport systems, only a return to guaranteed turnaround times restored confidence and, consequently, a lessening of pressure at public counters. The Minister and I are acutely aware that a loss of confidence will take a significant time to overcome, that frustration has been caused and that there will be an IR legacy.

The industrial relations action is slowing down the overall process. As Deputy Timmins pointed out, the CPSU has blocked the recruitment of temporary workers, which would have been normal at this time in the Passport Office. Demand for passports is seasonal, but it is 11% greater this year than it was last year. As concern has set in during recent days, a flood of passport applications into the system is adding further to the problems.

As Deputies know, there was a particular problem last Friday when the CPSU provided the Department with only very short notice of its intention to withdraw from public counter services. It was not possible to advise all callers directly as to their actions and the passport service management advised on its website when notice of the position was received on Thursday. The difficulties with the public office did not start last Friday. They had been building for a number of weeks. The Department appealed to the unions to put off their strike action last Friday. The Minister, Deputy Martin, made the same appeal last night, an appeal that I renew. It is not in the interests of the public service to be in conflict with the general public. Those who are suffering are members of the general public.

On 16 March, accommodation and sophisticated equipment in the Passport Office were destroyed. It is important to put on the record that they were destroyed by a water leak that occurred overnight despite the suggestion that they might have been destroyed otherwise. That a production unit will be out of commission is adding to the difficulties. The two remaining production units were receiving the normally scheduled preventative maintenance, work that concluded yesterday. With one unit out of action for the medium term, it was prudent to ensure the other two units received their scheduled maintenance.

The Deputies asked about the further action that can be undertaken. The Minister has asked the union to consider its position, particularly on the employment of additional personnel. The backlog will take some time to clear. It is in everyone's interests, including those of the public service unions and their relationship with the general population, to accede to the request. Suggestions have not been made just by our side of the House, but from the other side of the House as well, to curtail the action.

Having said this, I appreciate that the unions have a job to do. It is not easy for unions, particularly those representing lower paid public servants, to accept the types of restriction that recently needed to be placed on pay. However, it is a time of sacrifice across the economy. No part of the public sector system should impose additional hardships on families at this time of year. I would welcome any supplementary questions.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing this Private Notice Question. I also thank the Minister of State for his reply. I have a number of questions for him. Does he agree that the reason for this difficulty in the first instance is the Government's policy of pay cuts? Had it followed Fine Gael's advice and started enacting pay cuts above the €30,000 level, it would have been carrying out a far more equitable policy. The decision to reverse the pay cuts in respect of the higher paid added fuel to the fire.

Does he also agree there is an implicit right in the Constitution to travel? Thus, an individual has a right to transport, a right that the State should be in a position to honour. The European Convention on Human Rights, to which we are signatories, recognises the freedom of movement. This indicates that a State should be in a position to issue passports to its citizens. Does he agree that it is outrageous for the general public to be inconvenienced in such a manner? Members of the public are innocents in this matter. Some are queuing at the Passport Office and thousands more are waiting at home awaiting their passports.

This is not a question of someone hoping to go to the Costa del Sol for a holiday. It is a question of students going abroad on educational matters, people going abroad on personal appointments and business people travelling. They have all been inconvenienced. The general public cannot be held to ransom by one of the State's unions. It is inappropriate. This is not a go slow. Rather, it is a strike in everything but name.

Does the Minister of State also agree that the Passport Office has provided an excellent service to date? It is a credit to the advances made by sections of the public service in recent years. This work to rule has brought the office into disrepute, undeservedly so in some sense. The workers are being held to ransom by their union leaders.

At a committee today, certain issues were raised, including the extension of the valid period of passports as per section 9 of the Passports Act 2008 and the issuing of emergency travel documentation as per section 15 of that Act. It would appear both sections, due to security difficulties and international agreements with the aviation organisations, are not options.

Two options are available. First, the dispute could be ended. Will the Minister of State confirm whether approximately 50 temporary workers have been sanctioned to do the work and clear the backlog within a few weeks? Temporary workers are taken on every year during this peak period, but the CPSU has placed an embargo on their being taken on board. It has also placed an embargo on overtime. That a machine is out of commission is irrelevant to the time taken to process applications. The CPSU action is the only blockage. Are temporary staff available to come on board straight away and clear the backlog? Will the Minister of State join me in asking the union to call off the go slow, which has been of considerable inconvenience to the public? We have seen the difficulties it has caused people in recent days.

Second, we could outsource the service. If the State cannot guarantee through its public service that members of the public can travel freely by getting a passport, we should outsource the service. In 2008, a KPMG report suggested that the passport service should undertake a cost benefit analysis of producing passports in-house and outsourcing that production before the end of the useful life of the current APS hardware. The same report outlined how the Netherlands, UK and Denmark have outsourced their services, which have operated successfully since. Has this cost benefit analysis been conducted? Does the Minister of State agree that, if the dispute is not resolved, the facility should be outsourced? We are here to serve the public interest, not any sectoral interest.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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I acknowledge that Deputy Timmins made suggestions with a view towards helping. However, escalating the conflict with the trade union would not necessarily help. I agree with him that the union should give serious consideration to reviewing and reversing its position on overtime and the taking in of temporary staff. Many of the temporary staff are people who have been employed over the years in this capacity. It is strange, to put it no stronger than that, for a trade union, at this particular time, to take a view that employing additional staff is a wrong thing to do.

I do not agree with Deputy Timmins that simply blaming the paycut policy of the Government is a solution. This is a reality which we all face. Of course, I have no doubt I would make the same point if I were sitting across the House.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Roche soon will be.

Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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We are borrowing more than €340 million per week just to keep the public services ticking over. A very high proportion of that is going on pay. It is clear that the Government, whoever is in government, must balance the books. We cannot continue to borrow at that level. It would not be wise or prudent to talk about reversing this situation. In fact, I would be absolutely opposed to that.

I agree with Deputy Timmins that it is a citizen's right to travel. It is a fundamental right and enshrined in national and international law, the Lisbon treaty, the Charter of Fundamental Rights and the many measures we have enacted. That is why the action taken by the trade union in this case is singularly ill-advised. It will create bad feeling between the union and the general public, who are being grotesquely inconvenienced. There is something fundamentally wrong, in the 21st century, in people having to queue from 3 a.m. I heard a lady from Donegal speaking on a radio programme earlier today. She said she left her home at 3 a.m. to come to Dublin because a passport was urgently needed for a child who wants to travel to engage in some activity. That is wrong. Public service unions, notwithstanding industrial relations disputes, must be aware of this.

I am not entirely convinced that outsourcing public services is the best way to go. I have never been a big fan of outsourcing public services. However, the Deputy is right when he says outsourcing has worked very well in the Netherlands and is working in the United Kingdom. I am not sure of the precise position in Denmark. In so far as it is possible to run an efficient, effective and cost-effective service, we should do so within the public service. That is why I think the action of the trade union in this case is so ill-advised. In terms of the long-term relations between unions and the public it is an ill-advised action. I join with Deputy Timmins in calling on the Civil and Public Service Union to reconsider this, reverse its action, resume overtime and allow temporary workers to take up their positions.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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I thank you, a Cheann Comhairle, for allowing us to raise the private notice question and I am grateful for the Minister of State's replies so far.

We had an opportunity earlier today of raising some of the issues at the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. The meeting was attended by senior officials of the Department of Foreign Affairs, who were forthright and complete in their answers. Nevertheless, I will make a few important points.

First, there is no point in imagining there is not a background to this dispute. It is that the burden of the fiscal adjustment has fallen overwhelmingly and disproportionately on the very large number of people in the lower grades of the public and Civil Service. I will not dwell on this but I say it as a former Minister who looked at a small army of civil servants who were very far below those on middle and high incomes. In fact, some of the lower civil servants in my Department would have qualified for family income supplement, such were their circumstances. That is a factor. That being said, the advancement of their working conditions should not be at the cost of quenching the right to travel and to hold a passport with such grievous discomfort as is taking place, in Molesworth Street in particular.

The Minister of State may be sympathetic to the following point. Given my introduction to my supplementary question, it would be appropriate to locate this issue in the general context of the talks between the Government and representatives of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. There is considerable merit in that. The issues at the background of this dispute are not particular to it. They are elsewhere as well. If progress is being made in the talks between Government, the ICTU and mediation forces it would be useful to attach this dispute as quickly as possible to that process, giving, as it does, the opportunity of transcending the particular difficulties.

Second, if a backlog of 44,000 is threatening to rise to 50,000 it would be useful to arrange a place for queuing to take place in less distressing conditions and to break the large number of cases into categories. This could be done through the tracking system, which would give people an idea how long they will be waiting.

I share the Minister of State's reservation about outsourcing. It has not been the success people claim. Outsourcing of passport provision depends on the capacity to produce a secure document, to meet security conditions and to achieve international acceptability.

Members of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs heard how Ryanair, for example, has rejected out of hand the suggestion that it would, like other low cost carriers operating out of Belfast and other airports, accept other documents as photographic proof of identity. I find this extraordinary. Some low cost operators flying out of Belfast are doing this but Ryanair has said flatly that it will not even consider it. If we are, correctly, to stress the constitutional right to travel as something which should not be defeated by the trade union right to representation neither should the constitutional right to travel be defeated by intransigence and by putting identification verification conditions in place which have no legal basis. These requirements have no legal basis in European law. In fact, they are in contravention of certain aspects of European law. Even as one is dealing with an emergency, every attempt should be made to remove as many people as possible from the 44,000 so that one has a smaller volume to deal with when a resolution is achieved. Measures, such as extending the validity of passports and seeking forms of renewal not located in Molesworth Street, have been proposed to achieve this reduction.

The rejection by the Minister for Foreign Affairs of the CPSU statement as being "too little too late" is unfortunate. Waiting for the moment when the union is forced to withdraw all of its actions before a resolution is possible will prolong the dispute. I would have preferred if yesterday's CPSU statement had been seen as a window of opportunity. I appeal that it be revisited and that the dispute be attached to the talks between Government, congress and mediation. This may offer us the shortest possible journey to a resolution.

Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Higgins, particularly for his last point. If this is seen as a battle to the death on issues of principle, the people who will suffer most are those queuing outside. Ultimately, the reputation of a good service will suffer too. The reputation of public administration, which has already taken a hit because of certain types of industrial action, will also suffer.

I will mention to the Passport Office the issue of proper queuing arrangements. There is something fundamentally undignified in the 21st century in people having to queue outside from three or four o'clock in the morning. That is not acceptable. I am not sure how we can deal with the queuing issue but I will certainly make that point.

Deputy Higgins also mentioned the intransigence of a private operator. Public administration is where bureaucracy is supposed to exist and not in the private sector. One would have thought Ryanair would be a little less bureaucratic and a little more open, provided security requirements are met and proper proof of identification is presented.

Deputy Higgins also made a very useful suggestion that the backlog of applications should be broken into different batches of those which are urgently required and those which are not. Given that we are approaching holiday time and everybody is making arrangements, in light of the current publicity surrounding the issue, it would be difficult to persuade anybody that his or her case is less urgent that somebody else's case.

The Deputy also mentioned the talks that are under way. They are at a very preliminary stage. We have to deal with the trade unions in good faith and make it clear that they understand fully the difficulties facing the Government. We do not have any wish to be at war with the trade unions. We certainly do not have any wish to be at war with public servants, particularly low paid public servants. The Deputy is correct in saying that the pay of clerical officers and clerical assistants, the grades represented by the CPSU, are not grand salaries. I accept that. I served with some people in those grades and I was a member of that union and of its executive. Returning to the Deputy's first point, the burden of adjusting should not fall, as the Deputy said, on junior public servants. It certainly should not fall on citizens who have legitimate business with which to deal and many of whom have urgent business with which to deal.

I handled a matter raised by a person from Donegal, which was brought to my attention over the weekend. The person had to travel to New York to see a person who was dying. In all humanity that is a case that is critically urgent and the system should be able to handle that. I heard Deputy Timmins mention a case earlier of young people who are due to travel abroad for particular reasons, that they do not have a passport and that they perhaps should have applied for one six months ago.

We have had an excellent passport service. I fear greatly that there will be a legacy in this regard and in that respect I draw attention to the point I made, a point Deputy Timmins made and a point that was implicit in what Deputy Higgins said. The trade union took a step forward last night and it has shown great leadership on issues in the past. I mention in particular the general secretary of the union who has taken something of a lambasting in recent days. I ask that the trade union rescinds this action and allows the 50 staff who have already been passed to come in and to allow them to work overtime. We can continue the discussions. At the end of the day this dispute will be resolved. Everybody realistically knows that it will have to be resolved by discussion. It certainly will not be resolved by imposing any further hardship on the travelling public in this country. I thank the Deputies for their contributions.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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It is appropriate that we have an opportunity to discuss this crisis this afternoon. I, on behalf of my colleagues, thank the Ceann Comhairle for providing us with this opportunity. As the Minister of State will be aware, coming from Donegal, one of the jobs a public representative is asked to do is to arrange for the processing of a passport application in Dublin in emergency circumstances. I must compliment the officials and staff in the Passport Office on the service they have provided down through the years. They have been co-operative, obliging and have looked after us in emergencies, as have the officials in Iveagh House in helping to process a passport in emergency circumstances at a weekend.

The queue that had formed outside the Passport Office by 8.45 a.m. when I was passing it along Molesworth Street and down Kildare Street was unbelievable. That cannot be tolerated. We have to resolve the issue as soon as possible.

The Minister of State mentioned the case of a person from Donegal. A constituent of mine had to travel by motorcycle from Donegal to Dublin to collect his passport before 1 p.m. last Friday. Thankfully, he got it and then he travelled back to Donegal.

Many people in the country who have applied for a passport do not know the status of their applications. I have suggested to some constituents that in emergency circumstances where a person has to travel, be it on a holiday or for some other reason, any person who was born in this country prior to 1949 is entitled to apply to the British Embassy on Merrion Road for a UK passport, which would be processed in two or three days. I do not know if that is widely known. There are people in Donegal and in other parts of the country who are at their wits end and they will head to the British Embassy. If what is happening in the Passport Office on Molesworth Street continues for much longer, one will see a queue forming outside the British Embassy. I have recommended to a number of people in emergency circumstances that if they cannot obtain a passport through our Passport Office to apply for a passport to the British Embassy and that they will be facilitated. I do not know what is the view of the Minister of State on that. He probably does not qualify for such a passport on age grounds. It was a declaration of the Republic that anyone born here before 1949 is entitled to the UK passport, but I believe that would be the last resort for people. This problem is causing widespread consternation and the greater the distance one is from Dublin the more difficult one finds it.

It is great that a passport facility is in place in Cork. The passport service should be regionalised. There is no reason a passport office could not be provided in the north west, Galway and the south west. When the dust settles and this dispute is resolved, that solution should be considered.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The case has been put to the Minister of State to declare his eligibility for such provision and we will wind up the discussion.

Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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I would not necessarily agree. We should solve our own problems here. It took us long enough to get independence and to get to this stage.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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It would not be a satisfactory route to take but if the Government cannot facilitate people, they may have to do that.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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If people cannot get a passport, they do not have any other alternative. I am not recommending it.

Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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We had a much more peaceful exchange before Deputy Ring came in; he probably qualifies for such provision.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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It is true that one can qualify for a British passport on those grounds?

Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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It is. This is a serious issue and it is a reflection on the current state of affairs. Like outsourcing, I am not sure that this is the solution. The solution is in our own hands. I join the Deputies who made the point that we would ask the trade union to allow staff to work overtime, to rescind this action and allow the additional staff to come on duty. I thank the Deputies for their contributions.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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That concludes the-----

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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A Cheann Comhairle-----

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Has the Deputy a query on this matter?

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have a question.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy will have to brief.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does the Minister of State believe it is right that a person living in Blacksod, Erris or in Westport in Mayo-----

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Or a person living in Grafton Street.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Allow me to ask this question because this is not a matter of fun; there is a passport facility in Cork. If a problem arises concerning a passport application of an applicant from Westport or Bellmullet, the applicant has to take the train or drive to Dublin to sort out the matter. This has happened on numerous occasions. That has been the position before this dispute arose. I have a simple question for the Minister of State. Has he or the Government any plans in this respect? Why should people have to travel to Dublin to get a passport? The Government has a policy of decentralisation. Why must people from my county have to travel to Dublin to get a passport? More people from County Mayo than from any other county have queued outside the Passport Office today because there is not a passport office in County Mayo. That needs to be examined. We do not even want an office; we need a facility where people can get a passport rather than having to travel to Dublin to get one. Does the Minister of State consider that is a reasonable request?

Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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What is not reasonable is that any citizen, whether he or she is from Blacksod, Erris, Bellmullet or Donegal, should be inconvenienced. That is not reasonable. I am not sure about the practicalities of having a passport office in every county.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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One should be provided in the west.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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In the north west.

Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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It was a good idea to open the office in Cork. I think it is working well.

Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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It is an excellent service.

Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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In the fullness of time perhaps the other issue should be examined. Sadly, wise as the Deputy's suggestion may be it will not solve this dispute right now.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I know that.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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When the dust settles that suggestion should be considered.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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There should be an office in Galway.

Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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It may well be something that should be considered, but I am not in a position to do that. I recognise the validity of the fact that there has been a call from Deputies for further decentralisation of the service. I am not in a position to give an undertaking on that and the Deputies will understand that.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Can the Minister of State inform me if the Government has any plans on how it might deal with the issue of passports or has it definitely ruled out the concept of outsourcing the service? The Department was asked to examine that option by KPMG in 2008. If this dispute continues, we cannot allow the public to be held to ransom. We must examine a mechanism to provide for the issuing of passports. That is our first obligation.

Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with the Deputy that there is an issue to be examined here. I have put my own views on outsourcing on record; I am not a fan of it. We should deliver public services through the public service. That is my general view on this and on other areas, but the reality is, as the Deputy knows as well as I do, that even if there was a decision in the morning that the service was to be outsourced, it would present significant logistic difficulties to get to that point. It would not solve this dispute. The only solution is for the union to rescind its action.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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Arising from the Minister of State's comment that the talks between the Government and mediation facilities are at a preliminary stage, is there not considerable merit in asking that the talks address this particular dispute as a serious obstacle to progress? Will the Minister of State convey that message to those involved in the talks to ascertain whether the dispute is blocking the advancement of the talks at a more general level? In that way, the matter could be resolved.

Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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As the Deputy will accept, the talks are highly sensitive. It would not be wise, therefore, to set preconditions. However, the logic of the position dictates that the trade unions at all levels and specifically the union involved in the dispute reconsider their stance. I say this as someone who was a member of the executive of the union in question and is not in any sense a union basher. What is being done is terribly damaging and also dreadfully frustrating for the general public. I thank Members again.