Dáil debates

Thursday, 4 March 2010

Student Support Schemes

Special Educational Needs.

4:00 am

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Question 8: To ask the Minister for Education and Science if his attention has been drawn to the likely consequences of the reduction and or the removal of special needs assistants from the classroom in various schools throughout the country; his views on whether the likely damage to the education structure in schools that are already overburdened with responsibility and high pupil-teacher ratios, the likelihood that this development will permanently scar the education system and lead to a deterioration of the quality of education at a time of greatest requirement; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10908/10]

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy will be aware special education continues to be a key Government policy. There has been unprecedented investment in providing supports for pupils with special needs in recent years. There are now about 20,000 adults in our schools working solely with pupils with special needs. This figure includes more than 10,000 special needs assistants, SNAs, 8,600 resource and learning support teachers, more than 1,100 special school teachers and hundreds of other teachers in special classes. More than 23,000 teachers availed of training places provided by the Special Education Support Service, SESS, in 2009 which were designed to ensure a quality service that promotes inclusiveness, collaboration and equality of access to educational opportunities for students with special educational needs. More than €1 billion is being spent in supporting special educational provision this year.

As well as this significant increase in the numbers of additional teachers and special needs assistants providing appropriate education and care supports for children with special educational needs, much investment has taken place in the provision of transport, specialist school accommodation, home tuition, assistive technology and equipment.

My Department is very supportive of the SNA scheme, which has been a key factor in both ensuring the successful integration of children with special educational needs into mainstream education and providing support to pupils enrolled in special schools and special classes.

The Deputy will be aware that the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, through its network of local special educational needs organisers, SENOs, is carrying out a review of SNA allocations in all schools with a view to ensuring that the criteria governing the allocation of such posts are properly met. This exercise may result in the identification of surplus posts which are in the system and do not meet the current criteria, in other words, posts that have been retained when a pupil's care needs have diminished or where the pupil has left. At the same time, the NCSE is allocating additional posts where the criteria are met.

While there is no question of SNA posts being removed from schools where they continue to meet the scheme's criteria, there is also no question of posts being left in schools where they are deemed to be surplus to pupils' care needs. At a time of constrained resources it is essential we ensure public resources, both staff and resources, are deployed as effectively as possible. Resources left in an area that are not in accordance with criteria mean public resources are not available for another deserving area.

I emphasise that children with special educational needs will continue to receive an education appropriate to their needs. The NCSE will continue to support schools, parents, children and teachers and resources will continue to be allocated to schools to meet children's needs in line with my Department's policy.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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How many special needs assistants have lost their position in the past six months?

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I have made a statement on this matter. As the Deputy will be aware, some special needs assistants have been-----

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I asked a straight question. Will the Minister answer it?

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Please allow the Minister to reply without interruption.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I do not want to hear waffle.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Minister is entitled to answer in the manner he chooses.

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I made and communicated a decision that some posts are being created in schools while others are being removed. I will not set out the factual position until the review, which is due for completion at the end of March, has concluded.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has stated regularly in the House and elsewhere that in the event of a student with a special needs assistant leaving a school, the SNA post should be removed. I concur with his position on that issue. How many such cases has he encountered?

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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As the Deputy is aware, the National Council for Special Education is independent of the Minister and I do not interfere in its operations. While I obtain information from the council, it would not be appropriate at this point to provide figures on the current position given that the final figure will be different. The NSCE is removing some SNA posts and creating new posts elsewhere.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister should give us the figures.

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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We do not know what is the position at this point.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I remind the Minister that this is the national Parliament and it, rather than the Minister, established the National Council for Special Education. If this Parliament determines to find out the number of posts lost, it should be given the relevant information. The view abroad is that the NCSE is doing the Minister's dirty work and he is hiding behind a new quango, having instructed it to remove 10% or more than 1,000 of the SNA posts. People believe the council is taking the flak and the Minister is able to hide behind the convenient propaganda that this is a matter for the NCSE. That excuse does not wash.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy must ask a question.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister satisfied with the manner in which the NCSE has consulted the parents of children from whom it is removing SNA posts? Is he satisfied with the alleged appeals system put in place, which involves a senior special educational needs organiser, SENO, coming to a view of a decision taken by an SENO in another county? I have asked two straight questions.

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy indicated I am hiding behind the NCSE. This Parliament established the National Council for Special Education as an independent body. The Minister should not interfere in the operations of the council, which has a job to do. Criteria have been laid down for determining whether a child requires a special needs assistant. The scheme is demand led and if a child meets the criteria, a special needs assistant is provided. If a child with special needs moves on, the SNA post should be vacated. I am glad the Deputy concurs with me in that regard.

In certain circumstances, a child with special needs will no longer require the same level of support. We are trying to train children with special needs to cope with independent living. Thankfully, many hundreds of them now live independently as a result of the support they received. Needs will, therefore, diminish.

The Deputy asked about consultation with parents. I have made clear that the National Council for Special Education is prepared to discuss with schools the set up in a school and the appropriateness of the placement of children with special needs in the school. The council is also prepared to talk to parents. In response to the next question, which has been tabled by the Deputy and relates to a specific school, I will outline in greater detail what is being done in the school in question.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister satisfied with the NSCE's consultation with parents?

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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It is important that a proper appeals system is in place.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister satisfied with the current system?

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I have piloted 22 schools and I have indicated clearly to the NCSE that where there are difficulties, because this is emotionally charged and parents are genuinely concerned, to meet through the school with parents whose children would be affected. That is important.

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Question 9: To ask the Minister for Education and Science if, in the case of a school (details supplied) in Dublin 24, he will confirm that no further teachers and special needs assistants will be lost at that school; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10764/10]

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy will be aware that the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, is an independent agency with responsibility for determining the appropriate staffing levels in the support of pupils with special educational needs in mainstream and special schools.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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That comes as a complete surprise.

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy will also be aware that the NCSE, through its network of local special educational needs organisers, SENOs, is at present carrying out a review on the allocation of SNAs in schools with a view to ensuring the criteria governing the allocation of such posts are properly met. This exercise may result in the identification of surplus posts which are in the system and which do not meet the current criteria, such as posts that have been retained when a pupil's care needs have diminished or where the pupil has left. At the same time the NCSE is allocating additional posts where the criteria are met.

The current review relates to SNA posts. No decision has been taken on teacher posts. Falling enrolments would be one of the factors to be considered in this context. However, any change in the profile of the pupils being enrolled in special schools will also be taken into account.

In the case of the school in question, the NCSE is committed to engaging with the school authorities and all other relevant State agencies to manage the situation in the short term and to ensure a sound basis for staff levels in the interest of pupils. The NCSE is also arranging to meet parents individually in consultation with the school authorities.

This process is ongoing. A meeting took place on Friday last, 26 February, between the NCSE and the school authorities. Without prejudice to the allocation role of the NCSE, officials from my Department also attended this meeting. The NCSE is working constructively with the school authorities to resolve any outstanding matters. It is important that all schools work constructively with the NCSE on any staffing issues. It is not appropriate for my Department to intervene in the allocation process.

The Deputy is fully aware that I have prioritised the provision of special education supports to schools. This is a key Government policy. However, this does not mean that resources, allocated in response to various historical factors, are retained in schools ad infinitum. At a time of constrained resources, it is essential we ensure public resources, both staff and other resources, are deployed as effectively as possible. Resources left in an area that are not in accordance with criteria mean public resources are not available for another deserving area.

I am sure the Deputy shares my concern to ensure there is a consistent application of policy in the allocation of special needs supports throughout the country. This is all that is happening at present. I assure the Deputy that supports will continue to be made available to schools which have enrolled pupils who qualify for such support and children with special educational needs will continue to have access to an appropriate education in line with my Department's policy.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I invite the Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, to visit this school in Balrothery in my constituency, which is also that of the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, to see at first hand that school, those children and the teachers in that school. If those children were not in that school, there would be nowhere else for them because many of them attempted to go to other schools but could not find a place because of the mainstream situation there. These children have nowhere else to go.

The NCSE originally proposed that 60% of the teacher and SNA provision in that school would be lost by September next. I put it to the Minister that that makes that school unviable. I put it him that there is no way the school can function with such a loss of personnel.

The community I represent, which the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, represents along with Deputies Rabbitte and O'Connor, wants to know whether the Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, will intervene directly to stop the loss of four further SNAs on 12 April.

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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It is important for me to set out the position with the school. It is a special school and it is supposed to be catering for mild general learning disability. There are now 89 pupils enrolled. When the NCSE undertook its review in the school, it discovered that 23 of the pupils did not have a mild general learning disability-----

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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That is countered by the school.

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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-----that five of the pupils had ASD and seven of the pupils had a moderate general learning disability.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Tell that to the parents.

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Some of the other students did not have any assessed special educational need. The school has 89 pupils with a staffing of an administrative principal, 15 teachers, four teachers who provide special subject hours and 17 special needs assistants. In 2002-03, there were 122 pupils and the school had one teacher extra with the same number of SNAs. Even though there has been a drop in the number of pupils, the school has maintained the number of SNAs.

The fall in enrolment together with the large number of children who do not meet the official criteria for the school means that the current staffing of the school is excessive. The NCSE advised the school on 19 February last that four SNA posts would be suppressed. It has alerted the school to the possibility that a further four SNA posts will be suppressed with effect from 2 April.

None the less, it is anxious to work with the school to support the children with ASD and moderate GLD. For example, if the school were to open a class for children with autism, this would need one teacher and two SNAs.

No decision has been taken on teacher posts. Falling enrolments would be one of the factors to be considered in this context. However, any change in the profile of the pupils-----

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I want to take a supplementary question from Deputy Hayes.

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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It is important I get the facts on the record.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I am glad the Minister gets the facts because they are changing day in, day out. The initial position of the NCSE was that it had jurisdiction over this school when it came to teaching posts. Now the Minister has changed the story. Now his Department is telling me, through him, that he will decide on teaching posts. This is being made up as the Minister goes along between the NCSE and the Department.

Will the Minister visit the school? He can put any fancy term he wants on an educational disability that the NCSE has told him to tell me in this House today, but he must visit the school and see these children. These are challenging children. In many circumstances, one SNA is needed per child as a means of trying to get the learning opportunity for everyone verified in that school. Mid-year, the Minister and the Government has already taken away four SNA posts from this school and is now proposing to take away another four posts. Is that fair?

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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It is important that children are placed appropriately.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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It is important that if-----

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Where else can they go?

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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The pupil-teacher ratio for children who have autism is 6:1.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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In the units.

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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The pupil-teacher ratio for children who have moderate general learning disability is 8:1. The pupil-teacher ratio for children who have mild general learning disability is 11:1 and the Department accepts 9:1.

I am equally concerned about those children. I am equally concerned that they get the proper supports in the proper environment and that all necessary support is in place for them. There are 23 children in the school who have not been assessed as having special needs. We have arranged for the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, to carry out an analysis of the needs of those children-----

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Of every one of those 23 children?

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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-----and that is agreed. We have asked the school to engage with the NCSE. We are prepared to get NEPS to examine and categorise those children properly in order that they are provided with the proper and necessary supports they are due.