Dáil debates
Tuesday, 16 February 2010
Ceisteanna - Questions
Departmental Expenditure.
3:00 pm
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach the projected cost in 2010 of the communications unit in his Department; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [48388/09]
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 5: To ask the Taoiseach the projected cost of his Department's communications unit for 2010; if he is planning a change in the role of the communications unit; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3177/10]
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 6: To ask the Taoiseach the cost of the communications unit in his Department in 2010; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3456/10]
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 4 to 6, inclusive, together.
The projected cost of the communications unit in 2010 is €242,269, with a direct cost to the Department of €112,220 and the balance being paid by three other Departments which have staff seconded to the unit. The projected cost for 2010 represents a reduction of 6% on the 2009 cost, 20% on the 2008 cost and 27% on the 2007 cost. In fact, it is the lowest cost since 2003. This has been achieved through greater efficiency in the operation of the unit and the application of Government policy on reducing staff numbers. I have no plans at present to change the role of the unit.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach has explained many times the role of the communications unit, which is to alert him, as Head of Government, and the Ministers in his Cabinet to issues emerging in the media about which they should be informed. I thank the Taoiseach for his response on the cost of the unit. Arising from this, did the communications unit alert the Taoiseach to media reports on 21 December last to the effect that a Minister had been forced to admit he had submitted a sworn but false and defamatory affidavit to the High Court, and that he had been forced to apologise to the injured party?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must advise the Deputy-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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This matter will be the subject of a personal statement later.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am asking the Taoiseach if the communications unit-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is not intended to allow any discussion to develop on this subject.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am well aware of the regulations and I am not making a personal charge against anybody. I am asking the Taoiseach if the communications unit brought it to his attention on 21 December last that a member of his Cabinet had apologised to an injured party for having submitted a false affidavit to the High Court. What did the Taoiseach do when that information was brought to his attention? Did he call the Minister involved before him? Did he discuss the matter with the Minister? Is he happy, as the person who lays down standards, that the code of ethics and the code of conduct for officeholders were not breached and that the law was not breached?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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This matter will be the subject of a personal statement later today and much of the detail sought by the Deputy will be contained therein.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Arising from the fact that this may have been brought to his attention by the communications unit, is the Taoiseach happy that there is not a person sitting at his Cabinet table who may be guilty of perjury?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must advise the Deputy that if any allegation against a Member of this House is to be made-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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There was the suggestion of an allegation. If an allegation is to be made, it must be done by substantive motion.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This is about the communications unit. I asked the Taoiseach if this had been brought to his attention by the communications unit, as is its remit and responsibility. I want to know whether the Taoiseach received the reports of 21 December indicating that a Cabinet Minister had admitted that an affidavit submitted by him was false and that he was obliged to apologise to the injured party. Arising from the reception of that report by the Taoiseach, what did he do about it? Is he satisfied that the code of ethics and the code of conduct for officeholders were not breached and that the law was not breached? I want to know the answer to that question.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As a matter of interest, I do not recall being informed of this by the communications unit, but I am satisfied the Minister is not in breach of any of those arrangements.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach has explained to the House on more than one occasion the role and responsibility of the communications unit for which the public pays. The Taoiseach has outlined the costs that apply to the communications unit. This was a matter of national and public interest, and I assume the communications unit did bring it to the attention of the Taoiseach. Is he confirming to me now that it did not do so?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I just said to the Deputy that I did not recall being informed of this matter by the communications unit on 21 December.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Taoiseach to check his records and confirm whether this was mentioned in the daily bulletin to him, as Taoiseach, from the communications unit. This was public information, given that it had been broadcast and that subsequent media reports referred to the decision, the withdrawal and an admission by a member of the Cabinet that he had submitted a false affidavit to the High Court. He is not just a Joe Soap. He is a constitutional officeholder and a member of the Taoiseach's Cabinet.
It is more than two months since this matter would have been brought to the Taoiseach's attention by the communications unit. Either we are discussing blatant neglect of responsibility or the Taoiseach's usually sharp memory has slipped somewhat. Will the Taoiseach confirm that he will examine the bulletin of 21 December given to him by the information unit to verify whether it contained this information? This is a matter of standards, trust, belief and national importance at a time of great depression.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Certainly, if it is a matter of standards, perhaps the Deputy will defer a little bit from some of the more obvious intimations he is making in terms of what he has to say. I have already said that I believe there has been no breach by the Minister in any of the issues that arise. He will make a personal explanation of that in the House today.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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All I asked the Taoiseach was-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must tell the Deputy that I will not allow him to circumvent-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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-----the long-standing principle in the House that allegations against a Member must be made by a substantive motion.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle is overstepping the mark.
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is not an allegation.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle is overstepping his mark.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have not made a personal allegation.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am protecting the interests of Members of the House.
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister admitted to making a false statement. It is not an allegation.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have asked the Taoiseach whether the communications unit brought this public information to his attention on 21 December. The Taoiseach has stated that he does not recall it being brought to his attention.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is not relevant whether it did or not.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No, it is not because I do not believe that anything has been breached by the Minister anyway.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If the unit brought it to the Taoiseach's attention that a member of his Cabinet had admitted to making a false sworn affidavit to the High Court,-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must advise Deputy Kenny that we will have a personal statement on this matter later today. I ask him to await that statement.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----then this is a matter of the most serious import.
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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When is the Taoiseach going to make a statement?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If the communications unit failed to bring the matter to the Taoiseach's attention, it should be abolished. This is a matter concerning a Cabinet Minister.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We need to move on from this matter. It will be dealt with adequately later in the House.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I repeat - I have not made personal allegations against anyone. I have asked the Taoiseach to confirm whether the communications unit, for which the taxpayer pays, brought this public information to his attention. He has replied that he cannot recall.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but it is not relevant one way or the other.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Maybe the Taoiseach is like previous taoisigh, he cannot remember.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We must move on from this matter.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I could give the Taoiseach a list of times when Ministers were dismissed from office for a hell of a lot less than this.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Charles Flanagan has pointed this matter out numerous times.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps the Taoiseach has a bad memory. Selective.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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In response to Deputy Kenny, the Taoiseach stated that he does not recall the communications unit bringing the issue of the Minister, Deputy O'Dea, to his attention. Did the communications unit bring this issue to his attention at any time? His response related to 21 December when the matter first appeared in newspapers. If he does not recall the communications unit bringing it to his attention on 21 December, when was he informed about it? Did he know about it before-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must advise Deputy Gilmore, as I advised Deputy Kenny, that I will not allow this question to be used to pursue the issue of the Minister, which both Deputies have been doing.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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This matter will be the subject of a personal statement later.
Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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It is a matter of public record.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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If Members of the House are dissatisfied at that stage, they have a remedy.
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister take questions?
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I am dissatisfied with the correspondence I have received so far on this issue. I have sought further information from the Ceann Comhairle's office and I must regrettably say that I am not hopeful.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I am not getting into the detail of the issue of the Minister, Deputy O'Dea, at all. I am sticking with the communications unit.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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May I point out to the Ceann Comhairle that there is precedent for this? I distinctly recall that Deputy Kenny and I pursued questions about the withdrawal of the London flights from Shannon Airport-----
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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-----and the respective state of knowledge of the Taoiseach and the Minister for Transport. This is a value for money question. Given that €250,000 of taxpayers' money is being spent on the communications unit, we are entitled to probe what is value for money of that expenditure.
The issue here is did the Taoiseach get any information from the communications unit about this matter and, second, when was he told about the Minister O'Dea issue? He seemed to imply to Deputy Kenny that he did not know anything about it on 21 December. Did he know about it before 21 December when he cannot recall whether the communications unit told him about it, or was he told about it after 21 December?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry if I don't have the recall the Deputy would have about what he read on 21 December from whatever briefing he would get from his press office. If that is what I am expected to have, fair enough. However, the bottom line is that when this matter was brought to my attention, I spoke to the Minister about it and I am satisfied that the personal explanation he will give later this evening will clear up the matter.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Even before the Minister makes his statement? The Taoiseach has made up his mind already even before the Minister makes his statement.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has his mind made up already.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy must be joking.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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That is why I have refrained from doing so because this is place to deal with the issue.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Flanagan, please desist.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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This is a farce. The Taoiseach knows that because he has orchestrated it.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Flanagan, Deputy Gilmore has possession.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I know the Deputy too long. Senator Regan-----
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I know the way the Taoiseach operates.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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If the conversation with the Minister for Defence, to which the Taoiseach referred, took place before the Minister made a settlement with the person involved in the allegation and it was subsequently reported by the newspapers-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No, it would have been afterwards.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It took place after it was reported in the newspapers.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It was after the settlement was made.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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That was after it was reported in the newspapers.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Did the Minister not tell the Taoiseach before-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I just explained to the Deputy when I had the conversation with the Minister.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Did the Minister not tell the Taoiseach about it before-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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lf it was before, in the middle or after the settlement, it does matter to the Deputy. It was afterwards and I spoke to the Minister about it.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It is a matter of public interest, it is not about whether-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is the answer I have given the Deputy. I have answered his question.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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A personal statement will be given later, therefore, I ask Members to let the matter rest until then. I call Deputy Ó Caoláin.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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This is a gravely serious matter. If the communications unit did not bring the information regarding Minister O'Dea's withdrawal of the allegation in the affidavit he presented to the High Court earlier in the year and the Minister did not inform the Taoiseach prior to his apology and retraction in the High Court-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will not allow a debate develop on this matter. There are recognised procedures for dealing with it and I will not allow a debate on it now.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister was acting in his private capacity, not in pursuance of his ministerial duties.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will ask the questions and the Taoiseach can then answer them. On where does the Taoiseach rely for information flow if his Ministers do not give him at least a heads up regarding such a serious matter or the communications unit does not bring it to his attention? It brings into question the Minister, in the first instance, and the focus of this set of questions regarding the communications unit. If the unit is not bringing such matters to the Taoiseach's attention, what matters does it bring to his attention? What is its role or function? This is a situation where a Minister had wrongly damned a citizen in the full prose of an election campaign-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will not allow the Deputy to make allegations across the floor, if he wishes to make allegations like this-----
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is not an allegation.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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-----this will have to be done by way of substantive motion.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is a fact already established.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is the way this is going to be.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of the focus of these questions, sadly there is more that should be addressed here at this point. Will the Taoiseach offer the House a sample of exactly what the communications unit present and bring to his attention? We have no evidence of what it does only what we have learned today, namely, that it does not bring such matters of grave importance to the Taoiseach's attention.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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They are not signed by P. O'Neill.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is what the Taoiseach has indicated to us.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There is no P. O'Neill working in it.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What does the communications unit do and what does it report to the Taoiseach? What information does it provide to him on a daily basis to justify the expenditure on it of so much public money?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have answered this on a number of occasions regarding the communications unit. It is on the record of the House every time I am asked about it so I do not have to repeat it.
With regard to the matter raised by Deputy Ó Caoláin, in this case the Minister was acting in a private capacity. It was not in pursuance of his ministerial duties that this issue arose. He has dealt with the matter and will give a personal explanation to the House later.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach is stating that Ministers have two different lives; they can divorce political commentary in their respective constituencies from their role as Ministers. I find the answer incredible. The code of ethics and conduct that applies to Ministers must be in effect at all times with regard to their holding an office. There cannot be a relaxation to the point that they can publicly - in an interview with the media - falsely accuse an innocent party who happens to be a candidate for election at the same time as the Minister. That is an outrageous claim on the part of the Taoiseach.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Ceann Comhairle has ruled on this. He has already indicated how this matter must be dealt with.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is outrageous to claim the Minister has no accountability for such actions and utterances. Ministers should at all times be accountable.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will allow a brief final reply.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The Leas-Cheann Comhairle is shutting the Deputy down.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We are now into the time for Priority Questions but I will allow the Taoiseach the time to reply.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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To clarify, the Minister was acting in a private capacity as it was a private action that arose.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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He was not. He is a public representative.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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If I may be allowed to continue, there has been no breach of the code under which he operates as a Minister.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Haughey sacked people for less.
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The last days of the Roman Empire.