Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Question 40: To ask the Minister for Education and Science if he will make a statement on the discussions between his Department and the voluntary Protestant secondary schools regarding cutbacks announced in budget 2009. [44462/09]

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I have had meetings with a number of groups on this issue. The most recent such meeting was on 21 October when I met with the Committee on Management for Protestant Schools. I extended an invitation to that committee to join a working group with my officials to identify particular measures to support the schools and to consider options that might deal with their needs. Regrettably, the committee declined that invitation. On 18 November, senior officials from my Department met with some of the bishops to consider how the issues could be progressed. An arrangement is now in place to provide particular information that can assist my officials in their work on identifying measures aimed at sustaining schools in the Protestant sector.

What has been sought at the meetings with me is a simple reversal of the budget measures, determined solely on a denominational criterion. As I have explained previously in this House, that is not legally possible. The Constitution, in Article 44°, permits State aid to denominational schools, but only on the basis of no discrimination between schools under different religious management.

I am concerned at some of the claims that have been made on why legal advice was sought on the matter. I welcome this opportunity to clarify the position in respect of the legal advices. Work was under way in a more general context to identify legal advice on a range of issues. However, this specific issue arose when, following an oral parliamentary question from Deputy Quinn on 18 October 2007 on the block grant and Article 44° of the Constitution, the Secretary General of my Department asked for an assessment of all legal advices and legal opinion on the difference in funding arrangements for Catholic and Protestant fee-charging schools. That work identified a number of advices from 1983 onwards.

The legal advice was brought to my attention during the preparation of savings options for consideration by the Government prior to budget 2008. The issue was raised between the Attorney General and me in the context of the budget in October 2008. It is clear that the provenance of the legal advices did not relate to the outcome of a High Court hearing, as has been claimed. The High Court hearing concerned did not take place until June 2008. My Department acted correctly in both ensuring that the lawfulness of the funding arrangements for fee-charging schools was considered and in identifying its relevance in terms of decisions taken collectively by the Government in budget 2008.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The words of Mandy Rice-Davies come to mind. She famously said "Well, he would, wouldn't he?" The same applies to the Minister and his Department. We have been through this previously. Angry words have been expressed on all sides of this House. I am only concerned with one thing, namely, sorting out this issue and resolving it.

I wish to make a proposal to the Minister for his consideration. Whatever about his position on the auxiliary grants that, in effect, he took from the 21 Protestant fee-paying schools in last year's budget, would he consider an increase in the block grant, which as the Minister is aware, is administered by the SEC, which, in effect, is ring-fenced to poorer Protestant children who attend those schools? As I noted recently in a reply the Minister made to a question of mine, that would not present any constitutional difficulty. In lieu of the reductions the Minister has made to a range of grants to those schools in last year's budget, would he consider an increase to the block grant in the context of the Estimates?

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to reach an accommodation as well. I have met seven different groups from the Protestant denomination. On all occasions I have made it clear that if there are difficulties, I wish to resolve them and to do that in consultation with them. I was very disappointed when we met them two weeks ago. I suggested establishing a working group but they refused point blank to do it. All they wanted was a reversal of something I could not reverse. It would be unconstitutional.

I welcome the fact, however, that Archbishop Neill and Bishop Coulton met the Department's Secretary General and other officials last week. Great progress was made at that meeting. It has now been agreed that they will provide information to the Department outlining where there are difficulties for Protestant schools. When that is done, we will examine and evaluate the information and make a decision on it. At all times since this commenced, I have asked the Protestant community and its schools and bishops to provide information to me that shows clearly where there is real difficulty. I accept there are some difficulties for rural Protestant schools. If that can be outlined clearly, I am prepared to take action.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is not ruling out the possibility of an increase in the block grant. This is the means through which the State currently allows children from poorer Protestant backgrounds to go to these schools on a geographical basis. As the Minister is aware, many counties in the Twenty-Six Counties do not have post-primary ethos-led education for those children. Perhaps the Minister will give a fuller explanation to the House of the potential for the proposal I am making, that we consider an increase in the block grant administered by the SEC as a means of making up the difference for the amount taken from these schools as a result of the Minister's budgetary measures last year. Will the Minister comment on my proposal?

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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The block grant to Protestant fee-paying schools is approximately €650 per pupil. The block grant to a normal school is €345 per pupil. There is a privileged position already.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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There are reasons for that.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I am far more interested in having a targeted intervention for Protestant schools in rural areas that have been badly affected and need more support than they receive at present. I would like that information to be provided before giving any consideration to increasing the block grant. An increase in the block grant would create a bigger difference between the normal non-fee paying schools which most children in the country attend and Protestant fee-paying schools. I do not believe Protestants themselves wish to see that happen. I would prefer to target where there is an actual need, particularly in the case of rural Protestant schools, rather than blandly tell the House today that I will look at that.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Is it the Minister's intention to bring forward proposals to resolve this issue in the context of the forthcoming budget or by the end of the year, or is the Minister waiting to hear from some elements of the Protestant community before this issue is resolved? We all have a responsibility to resolve the mess that has been created. I will not outline the history of it but it was created for all kinds of reasons. I ask the Minister to resolve this issue sooner rather than later.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I have accommodated the archbishop and the bishop by meeting them. They have appointed a liaison person to work with officials in the Department and have agreed to submit additional information that will outline clearly where there are difficulties. As soon as that is provided, we will work with them to bring about a resolution.