Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Question 39: To ask the Minister for Education and Science the discussions he recently had with the Roman Catholic archbishops on the transferral of patronage in primary schools; the actions he is taking arising from this meeting; if the Catholic archbishops provided a list of schools they wish to hand over to other patrons; if he will convene a forum on patronage at primary level involving all the education partners to build a consensus as to the way the transfer of some Roman Catholic schools to other patrons will proceed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [44349/09]

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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In recent talks between my Department and the bishops of the Catholic Church, there was a wide-ranging and constructive discussion about the different issues that may arise in planning for the future development of provision for primary education. The Catholic school patrons and my Department agreed it was essential to engage in planning for change.

However, given the complexity of the issues involved and the necessity to take the wishes of local communities into consideration, the bishops did not feel they were in a position to provide a list of schools at this time. To advance the matter, my Department agreed it would instead explore the range of issues involved by identifying specific geographical areas where a change of patronage might be relevant.

The geographic areas chosen would be in areas of low-to-moderate demographic growth where the existing number of schools would not need to be increased in the foreseeable future but where a change of patronage might be relevant to cater for diversity. In areas of rapid population growth requiring new schools, the choice of patron for a new school would continue, as at present, to have regard to the need for diversity.

In this context, departmental officials are carrying out an assessment to identify a number of locations where changes to patronage may be warranted, given changed demographic profiles in recent decades. Clearly, any implementation framework developed to facilitate the possible transfer of patronage would need to be planned and managed. It would be important in individual school cases for consultation to take place with all relevant stakeholders, parents, teachers and local communities. Any changes could only come about by agreement between the various stakeholders.

While I would not rule out the possibility of holding a further forum on school patronage in the future, considerable further thought must be given to the timing and format of such an event. The results of the assessment being undertaken by my Department will also provide useful information in this context.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I thank the Minister for the brevity of his reply. There must be a new question-answerer in the Department, which is welcome.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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We are aware of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle's insistence to be spot on time.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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My interest in this matter, and that of the Labour Party, is not to disrupt the day job of schools or the delivery of quality education in the classroom. It is, however, to reflect the frustration felt by parents in many built-up areas that they can no longer get their children into schools of their choice of ethos. This is because of overcrowding and the schools, for the first time, having to ration places on the basis of baptismal certificates and household bills.

I welcome the Minister's reply but will he agree that with rapid growth in the population we do not have the time for the normal speedy response of the Department of Education and Science? Will he agree that a convention with all stakeholders would fast-track this necessary exercise? I welcome the Minister's commitment in principle, and the commitment evinced by the Catholic bishops, that in a built-up area like my own constituency, for example, they are open to provide for diversity where growth is solid but not excessive and at the same time meet the needs of children and their parents.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Quinn for his vote of confidence in the departmental officials in terms of all the speedy responses he receives. Given previous pronouncements, I am sure they will welcome that.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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They are slow learners but there is progress.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I find them outstanding, but that is another matter. In our discussions with the Catholic bishops, Archbishop Martin has indicated clearly that where there is not a demand for a Catholic ethos or patronage in a school, the church is willing to consider that option.

My officials met with the archbishop and Bishop O'Reilly last week or the previous week. At that meeting we thought they might outline exactly what schools they had in mind in terms of a change of patronage. They did not do that, but they indicated clearly that where we could identify areas where a change of patron might be deemed appropriate, they would consider them, but that it would only be done on the basis of discussion between the parents, teachers and general community. We undertook to look through the geographical system that we have in place to consider not developing areas because they will be catered for anyway, but other areas of slow growth to examine whether there is a need for change.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I welcome what the Minister has said. We will have more time elsewhere to explore the matter. In the light of the recent reports, specifically the Ryan report from earlier this year on religious congregations involved in primary and secondary education and its devastating conclusions, and now the mind numbing revelations from the Dublin archdiocese, as contained in the Murphy report, does the Minister personally feel it is appropriate for a Catholic archbishop with a track record of a diocese such as Dublin, or Cloyne which is closer to the Minister's constituency, to remain as patron of a primary school given his stewardship and management of deviant priests?

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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It is important that we recognise the difference that exists between church and State, but as a Government we also recognise that the law will take its course for any bishop or archbishop who colluded in any way or who was responsible in any way for ensuring that the truth did not manifest itself. The Garda will investigate and those people will be brought before the courts.

In terms of patronage, it is important that we understand exactly what happens. In many instances bishops are patrons of schools. They appoint two nominees and there are two parents' nominees. The principal teacher of the school is on the board of management and there are two further nominees. It would not be tolerated that the outstanding people across the country who are acting as members of boards of management would in any way be involved with the archbishops or anyone who broke the law. The current management of schools is working exceptionally well. The patron is in place in terms of ethos but has nothing to do with the overall management of schools. That is the responsibility of the board of management.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Would the Minister not accept that the patron has more powers than the ones he has just described, including the appointment of the chairperson of the board of management, and that patrons have a daily role in the management of schools and the selection and appointment of the principal? Those bishops who have been named in the Murphy report, who are now bishops in their own right in one of the 26 dioceses around the country, are patrons of schools and they have been deemed to have acted inappropriately.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy is going beyond the scope of the question.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Is it not now time for the republican party, of which the Minister is a member, to reassess its relationship to this form of management which does not fit the contours of the 21st century?

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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The Government and the Department are examining patronage in general. We are involved in a wide-ranging review. A steering group has been set up. In addition, a group has been set up to consider new, developing areas, new patronage for schools and international experience in this area.

There have been dramatic changes in school patronage. The Department is purchasing many sites now and the boards of management of those new schools that are set up are independent and separate from the Catholic Church. Where school patrons have broken the law, we depend on the Garda to investigate to ensure that such persons are brought through the courts and that the appropriate punishment is administered.