Dáil debates

Wednesday, 18 November 2009

11:00 am

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is proposed to take No. 1, Courts and Court Officers Bill 2009 - amendments from the Seanad and No. 2, Adoption Bill 2009 [Seanad] - Second Stage. Private Members' business shall be No. 76, motion re human trafficking (resumed), to conclude at 8.30 p.m. tonight, if not previously concluded.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are no proposals to be put to the House today.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We have waited a long time for the Adoption Bill, which is a matter of great interest to many people, to come to the House. Deputy Shatter has raised issues in connection with the Bill. Every Member has been contacted by people from all over the country who are currently in the process of adopting children from countries that are not signatories to the Hague Convention. When the Bill is passed, it will only enable adoptions from countries that have signed the Hague Convention. Most adoptions in recent years concern children from Russia, Vietnam and Ethiopia. Couples around the country are seriously stressed because they will be excluded from the legislation's terms of reference.

The position is that a couple might try for a number of years to have biological children of their own. They might then look for assisted reproduction. If that fails they wait for three years to get on a waiting list for approval and wait a further period before the adoption process can go through.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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As the Taoiseach indicated, the Adoption Bill 2009 will be with us shortly.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will finish, a Cheann Comhairle. I will explain my position in a moment. This places couples who might be eight or ten years down the road in terms of wanting to adopt a child, or a second child, in a very stressful position. I do not wish to say the Bill should not be read a Second Time but we should get a commitment from the Taoiseach that he will introduce a reasoned amendment that will allow for transitional arrangements for couples who are either currently well advanced or in the process of being approved for adoptions from, in particular, Russia, Vietnam and Ethiopia - countries that have not signed the Hague Convention. It would be appropriate for the Government to respond to the stressful conditions that many of those couples from all over the country are now experiencing.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We are all aware of this issue. Many of us individually and in other capacities are aware of many parents and prospective parents who are anxious to proceed with adoption, provide a loving and caring environment for children and offer the gift of love and affection to them. Many of us are keenly aware of this issue.

Second Stage of the Adoption Bill allows for a discussion to take place in the House as to how we proceed, recognising that the Hague Convention is an important international benchmark. It will also enable the Minister to continue to reflect on how we might be able to proceed in a way that meets most of the requirements of the situation without ending up with a practical outcome that results in the delay of the implementation of those standards. We have to find a way forward in that respect.

The Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, is available to speak with spokespersons or anyone in private about the status of the legislation and how we can proceed. The debate can be held in a constructive way to ensure, to the greatest extent possible and consistent with best international practice, how we proceed in this area, which I accept is deeply personal for many people.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Taoiseach. It is important that willingness would be shown by Government to put in place transitional arrangements for the many couples who are associated with those countries that are outside the Hague Convention. I appreciate that discussion will take place in respect of the Adoption Bill. I hope that the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, will bear that in mind in hearing the contributions from all sides of the House. When one speaks to couples who are in that process it is harrowing and stressful for them because of their desire, as the Taoiseach indicated, to give a loving, kind and affectionate environment to children whom they can adopt from those countries.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Bill makes provision to accommodate this issue. We need to discuss the matter on Second Stage and come forward with a detailed discussion on Committee Stage. There is unanimity in the House in terms of seeking to achieve the objective of both providing standards that follow best practice and at the same time trying to deal with the interim position of many couples, in so far as we can. It might not be possible to accommodate all of them.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I wish to raise three matters with the Taoiseach. First, I join with what Deputy Kenny said earlier in expressing sympathy to the family and friends of the four young people who were so tragically killed in the road accident in Galway last night. In that context I wish to ask the Taoiseach when will the Road Traffic Bill, which has been published, be brought before the House.

Second, in reply to questions the Taoiseach expressed his concern about the amount of time civil servants are spending on freedom of information requests. As he is aware, I will be entitled to make a freedom of information request for the document from which he read his reply to my question, raised during Leaders' Questions earlier this morning. To avoid the amount of time and process that would involve, will he release to me today the document from which he read in reply to Leaders' Questions this morning?

Third, I ask you, a Cheann Comhairle, if the House will be sitting on Tuesday next. You were asked about that yesterday. We have notice of industrial action, which will affect staff of the House, even to a senior level. As this will be the Taoiseach's last day in the House before the strike promised for next Tuesday, is he going to do anything to try to avert it taking place?

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Before I call the Taoiseach, arrangements for the sitting next Tuesday are in hand by the staff. It is intended that the Dáil will be sitting next Tuesday.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Will we be advised of the details?

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Yes, it is intended to advise.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I join with Deputies Gilmore and Kenny in expressing my sincere sympathy to the families of those who unfortunately died last night in a terrible traffic accident between Milltown and Ballindine. I wish a speedy recovery to those who are critically injured in the hope that the death toll will not increase. We convey our sincere sympathy to everyone on this particularly tragic situation.

On the question raised by Deputy Gilmore, my replies are on the record. I will supply whatever documentation I can. I do not know what the position is regarding-----

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Will the Taoiseach give me a copy of the document?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have answered any questions that were asked. Any assisting documentation I have is for the purpose of assisting to answer questions.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I am entitled to get the documentation under freedom of information.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputy is-----

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Can the Taoiseach not release it today? He gave a long spiel about not wanting people spending time on freedom of information requests.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputy is entitled to the information, I will give it to him. There is no problem. If he is entitled to it, I will give it to him.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I am entitled to it.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine, if he is entitled to it he can have it. I do not have any problem with that at all.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We will move on. I call Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I also wish to answer the other question Deputy Gilmore asked me on next Tuesday's day of protest. We all have a responsibility in this matter. The day of protest has been called by the unions concerned. I would rather it was not happening. We are continuing to discuss issues with the public service unions, but the decisions we will be taking will be on 9 December. This day of protest on 24 November will not impinge greatly on that, other than that it will cause a fair deal of disruption on the day. My honest belief is that it would be far better for people to continue to engage on the basis of the decisions that will be made on 9 December rather than engaging in a day of protest next week.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Publication of the nurses and midwives Bill has been promised for this autumn session. We have waited for the publication of this legislation for many years. Can the Taoiseach indicate to the House if we will see this Bill before the Christmas recess?

Regarding the prescription charges now proposed by the Minister for medical card holders, will that require amending legislation of either health Acts or pharmacy Acts before that can be driven home, in my view disgracefully, by this Government?

What are the implications for the inordinately long awaited publication of the eligibility for health and personal social services Bill?

While in the realm of health and children, and with the Minister by his side, would it be possible for the Taoiseach to ask the Minister to face up to her responsibilities regarding acute hospital services in the north east where we now have one hospital with all its acute services closed since July-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is the Deputy announcing-----

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----two hospitals closed as a result of C. difficile outbreaks, another hospital with the proposed loss of acute services from the end of next month, and one working under inordinate pressure?

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is legislation promised in that area, Deputy? We are straying-----

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Minister face up to her responsibilities-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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If we allow the Order of Business to continue like this-----

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----and acknowledge that the people of the north east are entitled to proper care and provision of hospital access and services?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the first piece of legislation the Deputy is inquiring about, we hope it will be published after Christmas, if not before. Second, I do not have a date for the publication of the eligibility for health and personal social services Bill. That is detailed legislation. Third, on the question the Deputy raised about prescription charges, all options are being examined. We are in the midst of an Estimates and budgetary process but if a decision of that nature were to be taken, it would involve amending legislation.

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I want to raise two issues. Last week, I raised this issue vis-À-vis a matter which has serious implications for saving existing jobs and also revenue to the State at a time when we can do with every bit of revenue we can get. I recently met with the pilots of our national airline who told me that hundreds of jobs are at risk because of contractual arrangements-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is the Deputy referring to promised business in the House?

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Yes. There is promised business. A budget will come to this House in a few weeks' time. I asked last week if the Minister for Finance was aware of the loophole where recruiting can take place outside the country for jobs in this country which has two effects. First-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, I have to advise you that is much more appropriate to a parliamentary question.

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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No, it is not. If I could be allowed to finish-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Very briefly.

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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This affects many people in the Ceann Comhairle's constituency. The reality is that 100 pilots' jobs and hundreds of other jobs are at risk in Aer Lingus because they are facing unfair competition from other competitors who can recruit outside the country. If Aer Lingus takes the same route, we will lose Irish jobs here and we will have an Irish airline here that will be staffed by-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, I have to advise you that a parliamentary question to the Minister for Transport would be much more appropriate.

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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-----non-Irish people from abroad who will not pay tax in this country. The question to the Taoiseach is simple. Is the Minister for Finance aware of that position? Is it legal because I am aware Revenue is looking into it? If it is legal, will he close off that loophole? That is the first question.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, you can table a parliamentary question and there is also the Adjournment Debate to deal with these matters if they are urgent.

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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It is urgent and if the Taoiseach does not want to answer it, so be it but the people who are at risk of losing their jobs are entitled to an answer from this House. This is the Chamber where these issues are supposed to be addressed.

The second issue I want to raise is the ridiculous set-up where at least one person I know of from Glenbeigh, County Kerry - Deputy Tom Sheahan's constituency - who got 600 points in the leaving certificate did not get into medical school because she did not score enough points on the HPAT.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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That is right.

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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There are serious concerns-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, a parliamentary question is clearly the way to go with that issue.

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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May I point to the legislation?

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is not promised business in the House.

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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The legislation to which I refer, which is aptly named, is the Qualifications (Education and Training) Bill. I want to know if the Minister intends to persist with that when there is an article published today about the concerns of the professors that people who have shown scholarship skills by getting 600 points in the leaving certificate do not get into medicine while others get in with 520 points. Will the Minister not agree that the real problem is that there are only 310 places to medical undergraduates of Irish or European Union-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is legislation promised in this area?

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Yes. Will that matter be addressed under the Qualifications (Education and Training) Bill and when will it come before the House?

Photo of Tommy BroughanTommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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On the same issue raised by Deputy Reilly, I have asked the Taoiseach on six or seven occasions to allow debate in this House about the crisis in Aer Lingus, the loss of 700 jobs and the outsourcing of jobs to Britain.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, that is not promised business. There are many ways to raise it, including the Adjournment or by way of a parliamentary question.

Photo of Tommy BroughanTommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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It is the Order of Business. I have asked you as well, a Cheann Comhairle. I also tabled a private notice question. I have raised it for the third time and a debate is not happening.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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If we allow this to continue the Order of Business will go on all day.

Photo of Tommy BroughanTommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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I want to ask about legislation as well but on that subject-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please come to the question on legislation.

Photo of Tommy BroughanTommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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It is a bit rich to hear Fine Gael protesting about what is happening in Aer Lingus-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are no longer on promised legislation, Deputy Broughan.

Photo of Tommy BroughanTommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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-----when that party voted hand in glove with Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats to privatise Aer Lingus some years ago.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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That has nothing to do with promised business in the House.

Photo of Tommy BroughanTommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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We opposed it and we are now seeing the fruits of what that party did, along with the other party, some years ago.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

Photo of Tommy BroughanTommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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I want to ask about legislation. My colleague, Deputy Gilmore, referred to the Road Traffic Bill. Will the Taoiseach ask the Minister for Transport to consider bringing in an amendment to make clocking illegal in view of the findings in tonight's RTE programme "Buyer Beware" that there has been a 400% increase in the clocking of cars and the mis-selling of cars in what is an unregulated industry? The Taoiseach might ask the Minister for Transport to do that and to come to this House to discuss Aer Lingus and the 700 job losses in Shannon, Cork and Dublin for several hours.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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On the query about the legislation.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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First, I understand the Whips have been discussing the issue of when a debate on Aer Lingus can be arranged. That is a matter for the Whips to decide as soon as time can be made available. That is the position. It is a matter of trying to schedule a debate in the House on these issues.

Second, I do not know what the financial position in Aer Lingus would be if it did not have access to private capital in recent years or what its balance sheet would look like today. That is an issue we need to bear in mind.

Photo of Tommy BroughanTommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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It might be like the Irish Ferries situation.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is important to point out that there are good reasons for trying to attract private capital into operations such as that as well. It is not simply a one way street in terms of the argument.

Third, I am not sure what the Deputy from Dublin North is speaking about. Locum doctors are obtained from across the world to come here and be employed and it does not seem to cause a problem for anybody. I do not understand the Deputy's point in terms of the legality of recruiting people from outside the country to come to work here. I do not understand what that is about.

On the other issue the Deputy raised, it was agreed by everybody in this House that there would be aptitude testing as part of checking the suitability of people for the medical profession in that it would not be based on academic achievement but aptitude testing as well. That was agreed by everybody in the House at the time.

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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It should not be for people who reach 600 points.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am not getting into an argument with the Deputy. I am making the point that that principle was agreed by everybody at the time.

Photo of Jan O'SullivanJan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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A report was issued yesterday on the small number of people who are damaged by vaccines. In the context of the widespread vaccination taking place in respect of swine flu, this is an important issue. Is the Government planning to introduce a vaccine damage compensation scheme and, if so, is legislation required?

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not to do with promised business.

Photo of Kathleen LynchKathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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Yes, it is.

12:00 pm

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The matter can probably be examined but I am not aware that there is any commitment to legislate in that area at this point.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Green Ministers appear to be suffering from some sort of colour blindness.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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They should have gone to Specsavers.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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A question on promised legislation, please.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I have a question that is very important for the environment. I am pushing for the forestry (amendment) Bill, which is long overdue, to be brought before the House. I cannot see why the Greens are not pushing for this. Ireland lags behind every other European country in forestation. This should be a priority and I am disappointed that the Greens do not come into the House to push their agenda a little more.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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They are out hugging trees.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The forestry (amendment) Bill is due next year. I am glad to see Deputy Bannon back in the House, he was missed yesterday.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I was here, I was in committee all day yesterday.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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He was missed.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should not be like that.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I am glad I am missed.

Photo of Seymour CrawfordSeymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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In light of the threat from dissident republicans North and South of the Border, when will the Garda Síochána Bill be before the House so we can discuss the needs of the area to ensure there is proper cover in light of the new situation?

In light of the major discrepancy in VAT on either side of the Border and the upcoming budget, would it be possible to discuss the value added tax (consolidation) Bill before the budget so we could find out how much money has been lost to the State as a result of the present VAT regime?

Deputy Ó Caoláin spoke about the need for Bills related to the health situation to come before the House. The north east faces a crisis, as we had forecast. When will the health information Bill be before the House so we can get the full truth about what is happening on the ground?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The health information Bill will be introduced next year. There is no date for the Garda Síochána Bill. The VAT (consolidation) Bill is a matter for next year as well. The Deputy will have many opportunities to put the issues of his constituency between now and then, he does not have to wait for the legislation. The budget and Estimates will provide an opportunity to do that.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle will be delighted to know that I am drawing up a list of the questions-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is the Deputy's question on promised legislation?

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is. This is a refusal by Ministers to answer questions, the reverse of promised legislation. I am glad to help the Ceann Comhairle here and he will be delighted to hear that I will have the list next week showing the questions that Ministers have refused to answer since the last general election that were answered by their predecessors before the general election.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I remind the Deputy that there is a subcommittee on Dáil reform.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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On promised legislation-----

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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There is good news on that front.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Yes. Great news is coming up.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Deputy is only getting off the runway.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely. We are all receiving questions from anxious parents who are concerned about the late payment of higher education grants. There is a rash of these grants that have been delayed, are pending, refused or require further information. Would it be possible to facilitate the House with a debate on some of the relevant Bills, such as the education (patronage) Bill, as soon as possible?

The Minister for Health and Children was showing signs of being involved in the Taoiseach's replies a few moments ago. We are also getting numerous representations from constituents about difficulties in obtaining supplementary welfare through the health services in the present economic climate. A Bill is promised on this, the eligibility for health and personal social services Bill. It might be possible, through the aegis of that Bill, to generate some discussion.

Deputy Stagg and I have raised the issue of the multi-unit developments Bill many times. The Taoiseach informed the House last week that the Attorney General had some difficulties and discussions were taking place with legal experts as to how the Bill might accommodate the developments it affects. Has there been any progress with that in the last week? It is of major importance in some parts of the country.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We are still working on that Bill. The education (patronage) Bill will hopefully be taken in this session and the eligibility for health and personal social services Bill will be published after Christmas, if it not before then.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Was the Taoiseach reading from a document released by AIB Bank at 11 a.m. on the decision of the bank and the Minister for Finance to breach all corporate governance rules and to allow a chairman and chief executive-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Are we talking about promised legislation?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Yes.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are on the Order of Business please, questions must relate to promised legislation.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Yes, this relates to promised legislation.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I do not think it fits into that framework.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The document goes on to state that only after the establishment of NAMA and EU restructuring sometime in mid-2010 will the issue of assessing the AIB Group management structure be addressed. This is the arrogance we are facing. The Taoiseach did not read the rest of it. On the forthcoming legislation on the Central Bank, the Financial Regulator and governance, does the Taoiseach propose to allow AIB Bank, which will probably sink the Irish economy with action like this and its previous behaviour, to continue to dictate to the Government?

In the context of this letter, is the Taoiseach going to disclose to the Dáil-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Does the Deputy have a specific question on promised legislation?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is specific legislation, it is probably the most important legislation we have dealt with, it relates to the governance of the banking system. Is the Taoiseach going to disclose to the Dáil the termination, severance and retirement package of Mr. Sheehy, the chief executive who will retire on 30 November? Will the Taoiseach make that public?

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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A question on promised legislation please.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It relates to the proposed new Central Bank Bill that is to provide for fresh arrangements in the governance of the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator. It was supposed to be a Central Bank Bill 2009, but I presume it will now be the Central Bank Bill 2010 or later.

We are entitled to know Mr. Sheehy's retirement package, given that Mr. Fingleton got a €1 million bonus and, in another two fingers to the Government, he has not returned it even though he promised to do so.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should put down a parliamentary question to elicit this information.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Was the Taoiseach reading out the PR notice from the bank?

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Let us see if we can get an answer to the Deputy's question on the legislation. The other information can be elicited by way of a parliamentary question.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach read from a long document this morning. A similar document was issued a few minutes later with a time stamp of 11 a.m. by AIB Bank. It carries the little logo on top. Is that what the Taoiseach was reading?

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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All these queries were raised on Leaders' Questions this morning.

Photo of Kathleen LynchKathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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Was the statement embargoed until the Taoiseach read it out?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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What is the Taoiseach doing about governance?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will try to relax the Deputy. She had a statement yesterday morning that claimed many things had been done that had not been done at all. I am sorry the Deputy is disappointed about that.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach leaked a kite and the Minister for Finance-----

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Not only does the Deputy ask questions, she answers them as well.

Photo of Emmet StaggEmmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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It is very unlikely that we will get any answers from the Taoiseach.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As a result of discussions that took place, the Government made its position clear yesterday morning. Subsequently the Minister for Finance had a discussion with the chairman of the bank and arrangements were made as I outlined to the House. I have a copy of the statement that was issued because that was the agreement that was reached.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Does the Taoiseach really think-----

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Despite the Deputy's assertions in the statement she released yesterday, that the cap was being breached, that was not the case. The Government made its position clear yesterday, we have now heard from AIB Bank about the arrangements going forward and they are consistent with the Government position on the salary cap.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Why did the Taoiseach not tell that to Deputy Frank Fahey before putting him on radio?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is another distortion.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Why not tell him that? Deputy Frank Fahey welcomed it and said Fianna Fáil approved of it. Three hours later the Minister for Finance said the opposite. A few hours later the Minister for Finance said the opposite.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach, without interruption.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry to disappoint the Deputy.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach is not disappointing me, but rather Deputy Frank Fahey. If he is going to put him out to do the steamrolling, he should at least give him the right facts.

Photo of Kathleen LynchKathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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Poor old Frank.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Rabbitte is a past master at this. Just take the facts step by step.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I am very cool here this morning.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Labour Party's finance spokesperson issued a statement yesterday, which is totally inaccurate and without factual basis. She is in the House now to lecture me. A second point----

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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She was right.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I was not wrong and the Taoiseach should withdraw that. My statement was about the governance arrangements which the Taoiseach was countenancing-----

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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She was wrong.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Burton should please resume her seat. The Taoiseach is answering the question.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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My statement yesterday dealt with governance and the Taoiseach's statement confirms that he is allowing the chairman and chief executive to be the same person. He has confirmed that this morning.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Burton, I allowed you considerable latitude on this issue earlier. Will you please resume your seat and allow the Taoiseach to reply?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is what my statement was about. He should read my statement.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Could we hear the Taoiseach, without interruption?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I want to make it clear that the Minister for Finance has indicated-----

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Why does the Taoiseach not read my statement to the House on that?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I read it yesterday, and once was enough, believe me.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Well, read it to the House now.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Once was enough. I thank the Deputy. I got it in one, and it was all wrong as usual.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I thank the Taoiseach for reading it.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will always give the Deputy that courtesy.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call the Taoiseach, without interruption.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I listened to the Deputy's questions in silence but, unfortunately, that is never reciprocated for the answers. We will do the best we can as we proceed.

Photo of Kathleen LynchKathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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Will the Taoiseach credit the scriptwriter in AIB?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The situation is as I have outlined it, namely, that the salary cap has not been breached. Second, Mr. O'Connor will be executive chairman for a temporary period, covering those issues that I raised earlier.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The statement says until after the middle of the-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Burton, please.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It will be for a period in relation to those issues being dealt with. The day-to-day operations will be dealt with by the group managing director, who will have a salary that is in line with the Government position. The third point is that Dr. Somers will be appointed deputy chairman.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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That is a dog's dinner of a compromise.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The trouble with the Labour Party Members is that they are disappointed. They came in here this morning and decided they were going to lecture us on what was and what was not going to happen. They are upset that the Government's position has been and is being respected and forms part of the solution here. That is the situation.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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That is a dog's dinner of a compromise, and the Taoiseach knows it.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We wish to move on to legislation.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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On promised legislation, can the Taoiseach indicate regarding the new central bank Act, which is meant to provide for a new structure of regulation, whether it is proposed to legislate for a situation whereby it will not be possible for the same person to be the chairman and chief executive of a bank? That has led to the downfall of several of our financial institutions and is specifically provided for in the letter he read into the record of the Dáil that was, correctly, the subject of my statement yesterday. It was correct because he confirmed on page 2 of the statement, regarding Allied Irish Banks, that this arrangement will continue until 2010.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is not appropriate for the Deputy to quote from documents such as that. It really is not. The Taoiseach was reading it out a while ago. If the Deputy will resume her seat, we will endeavour to get an answer to the question and about legislation.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I would like a comment on promised legislation and the governance issue.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding governance, I remind the Deputy that I was Minister for Transport at one time and we appointed Mr. Bernie Cahill chairman of Aer Lingus, where he was involved in restructuring. This brought that company through a very difficult period and there was no problem.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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It was not a bank, however.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am just trying to answer the question. The Deputies are not interested in hearing the answer. That is the problem. The role of executive chairman will be temporary for the purposes as outlined in the statement.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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What is temporary?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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For dealing with those issues as outlined in the statement from which the Deputy has read, three or four times.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I thought that was the reason for bringing in new blood, to deal with these issues.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It has been set out in the statement, with no room for messing about. That is the situation. An executive chairman deals with those aspects. The group managing director deals with the day-to-day operations and we have the former chief executive of the NTMA going in as deputy chairman.

Photo of Alan ShatterAlan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It is back to the future.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is the situation and it is being done on the basis of the salary cap being respected. I am sorry to disappoint the Deputies, but that is the case.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We will move on to legislation. Deputy Burton has had a good innings on this issue.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy does not want to listen to what her former leader has had to say either in his proper capacity as public interest director.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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On the governance issue, when does the Taoiseach propose to bring legislation before the Dáil?

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy please resume her seat? We have had a very good innings on this issue.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is a question on promised legislation.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It will be early next year.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That will be after AIB has done its fix.