David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 68: To ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the progress being made by her in the development of a second tier child income support payment as per commitments in the programme for Government; if the National Economic and Social Council are examining this issue; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [40675/09]

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The programme for Government that was agreed in 2007 contained a commitment to amalgamate qualified child allowances and family income supplements to develop a second tier of income support targeted at the poorest families. The possibility of such a reform had been mentioned in other documents, including social partnership agreements. It was argued that such a payment would target child poverty by channelling financial resources to low-income families without creating significant disincentives to employment. The proposed second-tier payment would, in principle, seek to combine the advantages of family income supplements and qualified child increases while avoiding the disadvantages of targeted payments, such as the creation of unemployment and poverty traps. When the National Economic and Social Council was asked to examine the feasibility and effectiveness of the merging of the child income support payments, it did not reach agreement on specific recommendations. In December 2007, the council's secretariat published a research paper that identified how such a payment would operate, in broad terms, and the significant number of issues which would need to be addressed. The secretariat's report included a useful preliminary estimate - approximately €775 million - of the net cost to the Exchequer of such a payment. The report concluded that such a payment would make significant demands on public service funding and administrative systems, and would take some time to implement. It is clear that additional resources of this scale are not available at present. The renewed programme for Government that was agreed recently did not contain a specific commitment to the introduction of a second tier child income support payment. In its deliberations on possible budget changes in the child benefit area, the Government is considering the needs of low income families and those who depend on social welfare.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Is the Minister telling us that this proposal, which was first recommended by the Commission on Social Welfare in 1986, is being completely abandoned? What are the most up to date figures regarding child income poverty in Ireland? I refer to both forms of poverty - consistent poverty and relative income poverty - that would be addressed by the proposed new payment.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The proposal has certainly not been abandoned. As its cost was estimated to be €775 million, it is obviously not possible to develop it at this stage. It is important that any change we might make would not preclude us from going in this direction in the future. This country's levels of child poverty have decreased significantly in recent times. A paper that was produced by Barnardos yesterday, which was compiled using the standard European measurement, suggested that there has been a significant decline in child poverty levels, from 27% to below 20%, over recent years.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Can I ask the Minister to give the House the date of the study she has just quoted? Does the study relate to relative income poverty or consistent poverty? Can she give us a breakdown of those two types of measurement?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy may wish to table additional parliamentary questions to the Minister to get some of these more specific details.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will provide the real and accurate data in this regard to the Deputy. As the study to which I referred is from 2008, it is up to date. I will get the most relevant figures on child poverty for the Deputy.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

If the Minister had attended the Barnardos launch yesterday, she would have discovered more about the serious difficulties being caused by the undoing of earlier progress in tackling child poverty. The anecdotal experience of Barnardos is that there has been a significant increase in the number of families with young children that are experiencing poverty. Has the Minister had an opportunity to examine the research that was published by the Vincentian Partnership for Justice over recent days, which showed that the greatest pressures are being encountered by families with young and teenage children? The Minister's sympathetic comments about the abolition of the Christmas bonus will provide cold comfort to families who cannot feed their children, heat their homes or pay their rent. I ask her to reconsider the provision of income support to families. The research of the Vincentian Partnership for Justice indicates that many families' figures just do not add up - their weekly incomes do not meet their needs. They will certainly not have enough money this Christmas. Given that parents will not tolerate the possibility of cancelling Christmas, the Minister is in danger of driving many vulnerable families into the hands of moneylenders. What will she do to prevent that?

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Factors such as the number of children in one's family, or whether one's spouse is in work, are taken into account when payments are made to people who have lost their jobs. The role of child benefit has to be acknowledged too. The Deputy suggested that people are unable to pay their rents, but the rent supplement scheme, which we discussed earlier, is in place to assist such people.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am not sure the Minister realises that we are talking about people who are so badly off that they cannot afford to pay the rent on their local authority houses.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Rents are varied by local authorities according to the income coming into people's houses.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Exactly.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

They reduce rents when people find themselves on social welfare. We are all familiar with how the system works. I know it is not easy for people who are trying to survive on social welfare, particularly those who suddenly find themselves in difficulties because their outgoings are commensurate with the good incomes they used to enjoy but no longer have. We have always had a commitment to try to protect such people as much as possible. We will continue to assess whether we can reduce the number of children who are in poverty. We have had huge success in that regard over recent years.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Government is undoing that now.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We will aim to continue to do that, bearing in mind the difficult economic conditions we face.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Now that the Department of Social and Family Affairs has started to make contact with the Revenue Commissioners in respect of the incomes of certain families, will the Minister give a commitment to put in place a mechanism whereby direct contact can be made with individuals who are eligible for family income supplement? Such a system is necessary if we are to ensure there is a proper uptake of that scheme.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is not possible to identify the family incomes of the vast bulk of the working population of the State. Married couples are identified in the code, but cohabiting couples are not. We are anxious for people to avail of the family income supplement scheme. By the end of the year, the number of people doing so will probably have increased slightly by comparison with the number at the end of last year.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

What about the report in today's Irish Independent, which suggested that there are plans to contact the Revenue Commissioners?

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am saying that it cannot be done in the cases of the vast bulk of workers. One might be able to identify a target group, but one cannot do it for the whole working population. Such matters are being discussed at present. In the specific case of family income supplement, the system is designed to support people who are in low-paid employment. It is also a way of ensuring that people can ease themselves out of social welfare and into employment. We are very anxious to ensure that people are able to benefit from it. However, we are not readily able to identify them in the tax system, in order to advise them to apply for the supplement.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I presume the matter is being discussed in the current talks.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The other point that needs to be made is that most such people do not pay tax. They are not covered by the tax net because they are on low incomes.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Some of them are.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Almost 50% of people will be out of the tax net next year. Even if the Revenue Commissioners were able to identify everybody on its books, it could not identify those who do not pay tax.