Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the further dialogue with churches and faith communities which he signalled on 17 June 2009. [24766/09]

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the outcome of his meeting on 7 June 2009 with the Church of Ireland Archbishop of Armagh and the Archbishop of Dublin. [24932/09]

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the progress of the structured church State dialogue initiated by his predecessor. [24933/09]

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meetings with the church and faith communities; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [27136/09]

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 4, inclusive, together.

The meeting with the Church of Ireland archbishops of Armagh and Dublin on 15 June last was my first opportunity to receive them officially since becoming Taoiseach. I was accompanied at the meeting by the Minister for Education and Science and the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs.

Our meeting was a welcome opportunity to exchange views on matters of shared interest, including reconciliation processes in Northern Ireland, the commitment of the church to ethos-based education, reductions in public expenditure and the implications for services to children and minorities and the effect of the Ryan report on abuse on public esteem and appreciation of the role of churches in society. The meeting was not arranged towards a specific outcome but rather for an exchange of views and perspectives that would be of value and assistance in policy development.

I took the opportunity to inform the archbishops of my interest to continue the process of structured dialogue between the Government and the churches, faith communities and non-confessional organisations in Ireland inaugurated in 2007. While contact at official level has continued, the recent meeting with the Church of Ireland bishops was my first specific encounter in the process as Taoiseach.

The process of structured dialogue was envisaged from the outset as an enduring channel of consultation and communications. I am satisfied that it will develop in the years to come to be a very valuable support in dealing with issues of change in society and I am confident that the opportunity to exchange perspectives and address issues of mutual concern in this way will be of benefit to all the participants.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach stated on 17 June that he would study the speech of the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin, Dr. Diarmuid Martin, in which he stated that it was untenable for the position to continue whereby the Catholic Church still managed some 92% of the schools across the State. Has the Taoiseach taken the time to study Dr. Martin's comments and what was clearly an invitation to action?

Does the Taoiseach agree that this is about the long outstanding issue of addressing the need to bring about a full separation of church and State? Does he agree that it is an anomaly that the State pays for education through capitation grants, teachers' salaries and a raft of other payments but that the vast majority of primary and secondary schools are not under democratic control?

Does the Taoiseach accept that the vast majority of these schools are under the patronage of the Catholic bishops and ownership of the Catholic Church? Does he agree that we should move to a democratically controlled education system here which is truly representative of the community and which respects the rights of all religions and none?

Will the Taoiseach heed what I have described, in fairness to Dr. Martin, which is to all intents and purposes a further invitation to action by the State? This recognises that the position which currently pertains with regard to primary education in particular but also to secondary education in some measure is untenable and does not reflect the reality and make-up of Irish society.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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One takes note of what anybody with an historically central role in education has to say. The archbishop addressed the Irish Primary Principals' Network in Dublin on 16 June last and made a speech on these general matters.

In the past, representatives from the Department of Education and Science met Archbishop Martin and the chairperson of the bishops' committee on education to discuss more general issues and statements that were made in respect of the possible divesting of patronage of primary schools in the archdiocese. At the meeting in question, the Archbishop indicated that he had no specific locations in mind where one or more schools under his patronage might transfer to another patron, but that it might arise at some point in the future. Those present at the meeting also discussed the different issues that might arise, the need for such changes to be planned and managed and the desirability in individual school cases of consultation with all stakeholders – parents, teachers and local communities. While a speech is a welcome indication of current thinking, a great deal of debate and discussion would have to take place before the transformation envisaged by the Deputy could come to pass.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I take it the Taoiseach is not giving consideration to a process that would lead to the creation of a situation across the primary school sector whereby there would be democratic control. I also take it that Dr. Martin's invitation has not yet prompted the Government to pay any serious attention to this important development. Will the Taoiseach provide an indication that during the summer recess he and the Minister for Education and Science will pay such attention to this issue? Will he instruct the relevant personnel in his Department or the Department of Education and Science to investigate how this process might be brought into play? The Government should publish a Green Paper, which could be debated by the Houses of the Oireachtas, on this extremely important matter.

In light of the fall-out from the Ryan report into institutional child abuse and the impending publication of a report on clerical sexual abuse in the Dublin diocese, will the Taoiseach ensure that in circumstances where religious bodies are obliged to dispose of property and lands in their control, this will not impact on educational facilities that are currently made available to the State by the religious bodies or the Catholic church itself? Until such time as the Taoiseach is prepared to grapple with this issue in a serious way, the primary focus must be on ensuring that there will be a seamless and unbroken provision of education for children. Will the Taoiseach further ensure that if a consideration of the changes Dr. Martin has invited - which I support - is entered into, this will focus on making any new arrangements child centred?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As already stated, the Department of Education and Science is currently consulting directly with patrons with regard to specific areas where the establishment of new schools would be required and how emerging demands in these areas would be addressed. As part of this process, we will seek details of any schools where a change of patronage might potentially be relevant. A review of procedures for the establishment of new primary schools is being undertaken by the Commission on School Accommodation. Among the range of issues being considered is that of patronage, including in the context of the criteria that must be met to become a patron and the circumstances where changes to patronage may be warranted. The Department intends to make further contact with Archbishop Martin and other members of the Catholic hierarchy to establish a more detailed assessment of areas in which schools could be identified where there is more school provision than needed by the demand for Catholic education and where existing schools could be used to provide for diversity of parental choice. Two new pilot community schools under VEC patronage are currently being rolled out.

The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, hosted a major conference on the governance challenges for future primary school needs at the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham, in the June of last year. That gathering was aimed a facilitating a high degree of dialogue and interaction on the important issues under consideration. The conference was considered an extremely useful experience in the context of collectively examining the challenges faced in shaping the primary school system to respond to changing societal demands. Archbishop Martin was one of the keynote speakers at the conference.

With regard to the Ryan report, which falls outside the ambit of these questions, it is the intention of the various religious communities to continue to provide educational, health and other services. It is not intended that we should dispose of those services because they are used for the public good. It is not envisaged that we should dispose of them because that would take away from the provision of such services. In light of what emerged from the Ryan report, it would be preferable if they were augmented through the procurement of further support from the congregations in question.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I am surprised by the Government's reluctance to take up Archbishop Martin's invitation to the effect that the State should engage with the Catholic church in respect of the patronage of schools. The Archbishop specifically proposed that a national education forum, at which the patronage of schools could be discussed by all interested parties, should be established. I note what the Taoiseach stated in reply to Deputy Ó Caoláin and what the Minister for Education and Science said to Deputy Quinn, namely, that Government will discuss specific schools with patrons and will deal with the issues relating to strategy, and so on, at a later date. The need to address this matter is somewhat more urgent than that.

The Constitution defines the parent as the primary educator. It seems to follow from that there is a right of parental choice in respect of education. Matters were fine when the range of religious denominations within the State was fairly limited. As Archbishop Martin stated, some 93% of primary schools are under the patronage of the Catholic church. At one point in our history, this broadly corresponded with the proportion of members of the population who were Catholic and who wished to send their children to Catholic schools. However, the position is now different and there is a wider range of denominations in the country. The parents of children of different denominations are seeking separate denominational education in line with their beliefs. In addition, a growing number of people are seeking multi-denominational or non-denominational education for their children.

At some stage, someone will go before the courts to assert their constitutional right to choice. An issue arises in the context of how we should balance the constitutional right of parents to choose to have their children educated in the school of their choice with the resources that are available to the State to facilitate this. The Government needs to be ahead of this issue rather than being obliged to respond in respect of an imperative that might arise if the rights to which I refer are decided upon by the courts in the first instance.

I would have thought that the Government would have responded quickly and enthusiastically to Archbishop Martin's suggestion that a national education forum be established. Will the Taoiseach indicate if the Government will agree to establish such a forum to address the issue of patronage in the context of the respective views and wishes of the different interests and denominations involved in the provision of education? If such a forum were to become a reality, the State would be in a position to put in place the range of educational options and choice. This would make the State's position more robust in the context of possible constitutional challenge. It would also ensure that we would not, in the aftermath of such a challenge being successful, be obliged to put in place an educational model which would prove far more costly than that which might be put in place now by agreement.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I do not agree there is reluctance on the Government's part. Obviously the Constitution bestows rights on parents and religious denominations involved in education. This is not simply an issue for teachers or stakeholders but is a wider public societal issue. Archbishop Martin stated: "Education is too important an issue for it to be left just to teachers, or just to the Department of Education, or just to one or other political or religious grouping." He noted that a solution based on the polemics of the moment is less likely to be successful than one which involves constructive reflection. We need constructive reflection on how to proceed with an issue that entails societal and social change to be managed over time. As the Deputy observed, 92% of schools are under the patronage of the Catholic church. Moreover, approximately 87% of the population claim Catholic origins or are of Catholic faith or whatever.

This is not an issue about which there has been no movement thus far. As I noted, the opening up of various models of school governance already is in place and several changes and initiatives have been brought forward and are in place at present. As I noted in my reply, the Department intends to have further discussions with Archbishop Martin on his views and to take its position from there, after which the Minister will report to the Government on the matter.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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To pursue this issue further, both Archbishop Martin and the Taoiseach have acknowledged that 93% of primary schools are under the patronage of the Catholic church. In practice, the manner in which this operates is that in large parts of the country, the only available primary school within walking, cycling or reasonable travel distance in a locality is a school that is under Catholic patronage. However, there are increasing numbers of people of different nominations in every part of the country. Up to now, what has happened in practice is that those of a different denomination send their children to the Catholic school, with which there is an arrangement that such children do not attend religious instruction. While there is a Catholic ethos and so on in the school, in many cases it is not really in one's face and most parents have operated along such lines.

However, society is changing and it appears as though people of denominations other than Catholicism have, to an increasing extent, been demanding their own school. Is it practical or possible to provide a school of every denomination within reach of everyone who wishes to attend such a school in every part of the country? Moreover, other people will state that although they are of a particular faith, they want their children to be educated with children of all faiths in a multidenominational environment that promotes tolerance and everything that goes with it. The State must face up to this issue very soon because it is manifestly clear that the State will not be able to afford to provide a school of every denomination in every part the country, as well as providing multidenominational schools, gaelscoileanna and schools of different character in different parts of the country. It is perfectly clear that we will not be able to afford to do this.

The problem is how one squares that reality with parents' constitutional right to have their children educated. My suggestion to the Taoiseach is that before everyone is put behind the eight ball in this regard by a decision emerging from the courts, which may have the consequence of obliging us to provide everything everywhere, it seems sensible to take up the suggestion made by Archbishop Martin and to address this matter through a forum and to find a formula that is reasonable and which meets the requirements of today's Ireland. I have told the Taoiseach in the House previously that Archbishop Martin appears to be far ahead of the Government in his thinking in this regard. He rightly makes the point that the patronage rate of 93% that is enjoyed by the Catholic church at present is not sustainable in today's changed Ireland. The Government should deal with this matter with much greater urgency than its present drip, drip basis, particularly on foot of the highly generous offer made by Archbishop Martin. There was a time when Catholic archbishops of Dublin were not quite as generous in such matters as has been Archbishop Martin, or indeed as open to discussion and negotiation with the State on this issue as he is. I would take the opportunity while it is available.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Obviously there are different attitudes in different times. However, I make the point to Deputy Gilmore that a major conference was held by the Minister last year in respect of the question of governance. There is an acknowledgement that we must find governance structures for the future that reflect diversity and which, as the Deputy observed, are founded on the financial and other realities that not every wish can be catered for in this regard. Obviously, one will strive for the common good and seek to provide education in which people's ethos can be respected although, as the Deputy also observed, the patronage model may not be able to accommodate every diverse religious background that may attend a school at any given time, and which may ebb and flow from time to time depending on demographics, age profile, family settlement and so on.

While everyone understands and recognises that this issue is complicated, there is no reluctance on anyone's part to ascertain what is the way forward in this regard. Archbishop Martin has made certain suggestions that are being considered by the Department and by the Minister. The Minister will bring a fully fleshed out proposal to the Cabinet in due course on which it can proceed. However, it will be on the basis of a consultative process that involves everyone and as I stated, that is a question of constructive reflection, rather than one that would provide immediate action or answers. There is an attitudinal and educative aspect to this issue, in that one must prepare for the future by bringing people to understand and see through the ownership of the parents and communities. This already is taking place on foot of the withdrawal of the religious from teaching posts in front line education. Moreover, in respect of the governance and management of schools, boards of management clearly and quite rightly now have far greater lay and parental participation. This is far more holistic, from a community point of view, than might traditionally have been the case in the past. The situation is emerging and evolving and this constitutes a societal and social change that must be managed. Moreover, this must be done on the basis of collaboration and co-operation between the stakeholders in education and society in general, as well as policymakers, in a manner that respects ethos-based education and that seeks to respect those who wish to have available other more diverse models available in a manner that makes fiscal and financial sense.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I wish to ask the Taoiseach a different question. The 18 religious congregations that were involved in the religious residential institutions that gave rise to the Ryan report have agreed to present their detailed reports by 15 July, which is the end of next week. I understand, from the Government's response to this proposal, that a three-person panel will be set up to report back initially to the Government on the basis of the presentations made by the religious congregations. What is the timescale for the three-person panel to assess and analyse the presentations by the congregations? Does the Taoiseach believe the congregations will be in a position to provide conclusive reports on the additional contributions they might be able to offer? Are there indications that any congregation will not be able to meet that deadline?

Second, I wish to question the Taoiseach on a similar matter. The appointment of Archbishop Diarmuid Martin has been refreshing, given the reality of what the Catholic church has been obliged to face in Ireland. It is necessary that a person of his stature should addressed these issues in the way he has. He has stated that the report on child abuse in the archdiocese of Dublin will, in his own words, " shock us all". This will not make for very nice reading but it must be dealt with. Last week, reports in The Sunday Business Post and The Sunday Tribune suggested that the agencies working with the victims of abuse in Dublin, namely, the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre and the One in Four group, have been overwhelmed by the demand for their services. They wish the publication of the Dublin diocesan report to be delayed because they are unable to meet the demand pouring in as a consequence of the Ryan commission report. Has the Taoiseach and the Government responded to be Dublin Rape Crisis Centre and One in Four? The two groups wrote to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Funding for the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre has been cut by 2.5% by the HSE in 2009. Given the numbers seeking assistance and counsel, do the Government and the Minister for Health and Children intend to do anything about that?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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These questions go beyond the structured dialogue one has with churches and faith communities as referred to in this question. I do not have the information available and I do not know the position on correspondence with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. This must be taken up with him.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Fair enough.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the meeting with the religious congregation on 24 June to review progress on this matter, they indicated they were well advanced in the preparation of statements of their financial affairs. These will be signed off on by their financial advisers and submitted over the coming weeks. The Government decided these statements will be assessed by a panel of eminent persons to give an assurance that they represent a fair account of resources available, from which a significant additional contribution can be made. A further meeting will take place in mid-July, by which time we have further idea of how much progress is being made. They are working assiduously and recognise that it is a matter that must be addressed as quickly as possible and as comprehensively as necessary. We will then appoint a panel to interact with them to ensure that everything is as it should be.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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During discussions with the churches, were there discussions on indications that there may be more civil registrations than religious marriages in the coming years, the changing nature of society from that perspective and the involvement of the churches in it?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No, it was a general discussion on Northern Ireland. The Archbishop of Armagh and the Church of Ireland Archbishop of Dublin attended. There was an opportunity to discuss these matters, the commitment of the church to ethos-based education, minorities being accommodated, the challenges that face the country in respect of reductions in public expenditure and the implications for our services to children and minorities. It was a general discussion and the first I have had with them.