Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach the estimated staff costs to his Department since May 2008 associated with supports and liaison provided to the Independent Members of Dáil Éireann who support the Government; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [24673/09]

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach the level of support provided by his Department to Independent Deputies who have committed to support the Government; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [26209/09]

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 and 2 together.

The support and liaison arrangements in place for the Independent Members of Dáil Éireann who support the Government continue as before. They operate in the context of the political agreements with these Deputies, which are confidential and based on the programme for Government, which incorporates the national development plan, approved Government programmes and annual estimates for capital and current expenditure.

The only staff costs associated with the provision of this support are of an assistant principal in my Department who assists the Government Chief Whip in liaising with these Deputies. As has been the practice for over 11 years, this official meets with the Deputies on a regular basis and arranges to keep them briefed on issues as they arise.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I accept that it is practical politics to enter into arrangements with people who wish to support the Government. However, we do not live in a secret society and nor should that be the case. In the midst of a national crisis and a recession, secret deals - which were hammered out between the Government and several Independent Deputies - still exist and no one can obtain details relating to them, either through freedom of information requests or by some other means. We were originally informed that the deals concluded with three Independents in June 2007 were worth millions of euro to various constituencies. I can neither confirm nor deny whether that is the case because I do not know the position. The relevant information will not be provided, unless it is in the form of visible evidence of corners of pages containing the signature of the Taoiseach's predecessor.

In light of the current national crisis and the fact that we all have ideas about how best to get the economy moving again and get people back to work, is the Taoiseach of the view that, for good or ill, it would be appropriate that details of the arrangements be published? Is there any truth in reports which emerged in recent days to the effect that at least two of the Independent Deputies involved have indicated that some shaving has been carried out in respect of the financial arrangements and that some of the matters that were listed as priorities have now been removed? Will the Taoiseach confirm whether that is the position? Furthermore, will he indicate whether these Independent Deputies are part of the review he is obliged to conduct with the Green Party, the Members of which are absent from the Chamber, which is holding a meeting on 18 July to decide on its priorities?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As the Deputy has been aware for some time, agreements entered into by my predecessor with a number of Deputies are political in nature and details relating to them are not covered by parliamentary questions. These agreements are confidential but, as has always been the case, they are based on the programme for Government, which incorporates the national development plan, approved Government programmes and annual Estimates for capital and current expenditure. For some time, that has been the established position with regard to agreements with Independent Deputies.

It is open to people to continue to make representations in respect of a range of issues and we continue to be of assistance to Deputies who support the Government regarding matters they raise. Those Deputies entered into political agreements with my predecessor and, as stated on previous occasions, I intend to honour these.

I cannot comment on any speculation the Deputy may have read in respect of this matter. The issues to which I refer are dealt with on an ongoing basis with the Deputies involved on a bona fide basis.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am sure the Taoiseach will agree that the exercise of government is one of openness and transparency and that matters should be seen to be absolutely above board. I have no doubt but that this is his conviction. However, the arrangements to which I refer are secret deals involving the Government and two or three Independent Deputies. The details relating to these arrangements are confidential and, therefore, cannot be made known to the House or to the remainder of the country.

An assistant principal officer has been appointed to deal with this matter. I do not know how much time that individual allocates to deal with the whims and concerns of the Independent Deputies involved. How many hours per week does this official devote each week to dealing with Deputies Healy-Rae and Lowry? How much time was allocated in respect of the concerns of Deputy Finian McGrath when he still had a deal with the Government?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I am long gone out of it.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is there evidence with regard to the amount of time committed, on behalf of the taxpayer, in respect of dealing with the concerns and issues raised by the relevant Independent Deputies?

At a time when efficiency in the public services is critically important, someone who is probably an experienced assistant principal officer is obliged to spend time each week discussing with Independent Deputies confidential arrangements they have in respect of the provision of bridges, roads or developments in their constituencies and assuring them that these projects retain the priority afforded to them under the programme for Government. That programme is in tatters because, as the Taoiseach has pointed out on numerous occasions, it was predicated on a growth rate of 4.5% and such a rate has not been maintained. The entire programme is off the rails and that is why a review, during which Fianna Fáil and the Green Party will decide on what are their priorities, is taking place.

For instance, am I to take it that the confidential arrangements with Deputies Healy-Rae and Lowry will be maintained in their original form or are they to be slimmed down? Is the aforementioned assistant principal officer to be given a new role requiring the devotion of less time to the concerns of these Deputies and more time to providing part of the efficiency of Government? Can the Taoiseach confirm these lists costing millions, as Members have been told, will be scaled back in view of the perilous state of the economy and the difficulties everyone is experiencing at present? Secret deals have been made in this House about which Deputy Burton often has asked and about which she cannot be given any information. Speaking as a public representative, it is neither here nor there whether it is the improvement of a stretch of road, the removal of a bad corner or whatever is included in these deals. However, at a time when people demand openness, transparency and accountability, the Taoiseach sits on the Government benches while an assistant principal officer in his Department allocates time, and consequently money, to dealing with the whims of a number of Independent Deputies who support the Government when they walk through the lobbies and yet no one can find out what these agreements are about.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I know this issue is a matter of some frustration to the Deputy, who raises it every week. However, these are confidential political agreements that are in place. As I noted, they exist within the context of the programme for Government, which in turn is in the context of the availability of resources. All these issues must be dealt with on the basis of established priorities and the manner in which one can accommodate issues as they arise. This requires continuing liaison with those Deputies who support the Government. The assistant principal officer, who is attached to the Chief Whip's office, obviously is available to the Chief Whip in respect of duties there as well. It is a question of having in place a system in which people who support the Government have an opportunity to interface with Departments and to convey their views on various matters and this is part of the job of managing the Government.

Moreover, all the commitments made in the programme for Government are predicated on the availability of resources and the need to accommodate priorities as we go along. As Deputy Kenny observed, I have stated that it was predicated on growth rates of 4.5% and that progress is being made in many areas of the programme. In any event, all commitments within the programme are predicated on that financial provision which is the centre piece of any programme for Government, namely, on the availability of resources and the maintenance of strong public finances.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I refer to the case, back in the 1980s, of a Fine Gael Minister of State who had a particular policy he wished to pursue. He approached the Taoiseach himself, only to be told that unfortunately, no money was available. Has the aforementioned assistant principal officer ever been instructed to tell either Deputy Healy-Rae or Deputy Lowry, in respect of a particular item, that no money is available and that the item in question will drop of the end of the list? Finally, do such agreements extend to Deputy Behan, who has left Fianna Fáil and who now also is an Independent Member?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As I have stated to the Deputy, in liaising, public servants obviously will pass on whatever information or views are expressed at interface with Ministers and Departments in the normal way. Ministers are the people who make the ultimate decisions in respect of expenditure. That is the normal provision and there is no need to involve public servants in that process, apart from doing their job in the normal course of events. As I noted, the agreement relates to those Deputies who support the Government and it has been open to Independent Deputies to so do. Deputy Kenny is aware that Deputy Finian McGrath no longer seeks to support the Government on the basis of that agreement, which is fair enough. That is the political reality with which we must deal. However, there has been no change in respect of the Deputies who had prior agreements with us.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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My understanding is that in recent months, an bord snip nua has been looking at expenditure headings in all Departments. As the Taoiseach himself acknowledged, the gross cost of the attached assistant principal officer's salary, pension entitlements and so on probably is approximately €100,000 per annum. Even if that person devoted only 20% of his or her time to looking after the two Independent Members, one still comes out with a cost of approximately €20,000 simply to massage the Independent Members and ensure they get the news out first, even before the Government Deputies. Has the cost of the deal and the cost of servicing the deal been examined by an bord snip nua or otherwise? We hear that all sorts of vital areas of expenditure, some 400 areas, have been offered for review, cut back or abolition. There is no case in a parliamentary democracy for the basis of a programme for Government being held in part in secret. Is the expenditure involved in dealing with Independent Deputies subject to examination by an bord snip nua?

The Taoiseach referred to the cost of the civil servant. Three of the Deputies indicated that the value of the deal to their constituencies amounts to many tens of millions of euro. Deputy Finian McGrath claimed to have a commitment from Government on cystic fibrosis. This was included in the cost of his deal. Two of the Deputies who were subject to the deal have gone because Deputy Flynn has rejoined Fianna Fáil and Deputy Finian McGrath is no longer party to the deal.

In these changed financial circumstances we have an expensive administrative superstructure. Has Mr. Colm McCarthy's group examined this? What is the value of the deal for each of the remaining Deputies who support the Government? The Green Party has stated, and the Taoiseach has acknowledged, that there will be a review of the programme for Government. Will this review take into account the Independent Deputies? Will it involve one-on-one negotiations with the Taoiseach, the Chief Whip or the assistant principal assigned to look after them?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is important that people do not involve the assistant principal, who is simply a liaison officer who deals with queries from Independent Deputies and passes them on to Departments. There is no need to involve him in political discussions or suggest he is involved in this. That is not his role.

With regard to the liaison that takes place for Deputies who support the Government, per head of Dáil Members it is far less than the cost involved when we set up programme offices, programme managers and the office of the Tánaiste when the Labour Party came into office. Per head of population that was a far more expensive support arrangement than what currently exists, which is quite frugal in comparison.

One need not make a mountain out of a molehill. People supporting the Government have a liaison arrangement with the Office of the Chief Whip. The person involved is an assistant principal and liaises with the Deputies on an ongoing basis, as the Deputies require. This is part of the management of Government to ensure we have a majority in the House to implement the programme for Government.

The political agreements they have are subject to the same constraints as other spending programmes. The committee reviewing public service numbers and programmes has examined all spending programmes. Priorities are established, decided on and implemented by the Government. That will apply to these matters as well. These questions provide opportunities for Deputies to suggest something other than what is the case. I have outlined the basic arrangement and it makes clear political sense.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I thank the Taoiseach for the reply but it does not get us much further. If we are in a life and death situation as an economy, with all expenditure being reviewed as to whether it is absolutely critical and essential, the allocation of an assistant principal in whole or in part to mind two Independent Deputies is difficult for many ordinary people to justify when it is compared to the cutbacks that schools will experience in September. I would not have quibbled if the Taoiseach when he was Minister for Finance had employed an adviser or two to keep an eye on the banks because we might not be in the mess we are if, during his stewardship of the Department of Finance-----

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy must ask a question and not impart information.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----he had made arrangements-----

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is not a time for that; it is a time for a question.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----to be adequately and appropriately advised on how to look after the economy.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy must ask a question if she wishes to do so.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The question I asked was whether the remit of the McCarthy committee was general to all headings of public expenditure and whether it included the operation of the arrangements with the Independents and their minding by an assistant principal officer.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I did not give any specific terms of reference in respect of this and neither did the Government. The Government asked that all spending programmes be reviewed. Obviously, the issue of public service numbers is being reviewed and examined departmentally. The point returns to the basic issue. This is a political arrangement the Government has undertaken with those who support it on the Independent benches in the interests of ensuring that we accommodate views where possible, listen to their priorities and see in what way their issues can be advanced. Many of these issues are of concern to all those who represent these constituencies. There is nothing unusual about this and it is important from our point of view to accommodate in that respect, rather than not having any liaison arrangements whatever, in an effort to show our bona fides towards the issues they would raise on the basis that they are supporting the Government. It is an arrangement that is totally defensible in that context.