Dáil debates

Tuesday, 7 July 2009

Private Notice Questions

Electricians' Strike.

12:00 pm

Photo of John O'DonoghueJohn O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will call on the Deputies who tabled questions to the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment in the order in which they submitted their questions to my office.

Deputy James Bannon asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment if she will intervene in the electricians' strike which is putting thousand of jobs at risk here at a time when the cost in terms of rising unemployment figures and social breakdown would be disastrous, with unemployment having reached 11.9%, the second highest level in Europe, and 413,500 people signing on the live register, with the Taoiseach predicting 0.5 million to be unemployed by the end of the year. As we all know, there are huge-----

Photo of John O'DonoghueJohn O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy can deal with the question later on.

Deputy Willie Penrose asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to outline the steps the Government proposes to take to seek a resolution to the electricians' industrial dispute; if, in particular, she will use the powers available to her under section 38 of the 1990 Industrial Relations Act; and if she will make a statement on the matter.

Deputy Leo Varadkar asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise Trade and Employment the position in regard to the ongoing electricians' strike.

Photo of Mary CoughlanMary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The Technical, Engineering & Electrical Union took strike action on Monday, 6 July 2009. This action follows the breakdown of talks at the Labour Relations Commission. The National Implementation Body issued a statement on the dispute on Friday, 3 July urging the parties to re-engage with the LRC to explore the full range of issues at the centre of the dispute, with a view to averting threatened action. Discussions over the weekend at the LRC failed to make progress. The services of the LRC have remained available to assist in resolving the issue in dispute.

In view of the seriousness of the position and the impact on the economy, I have requested the Labour Relations Commission to recall the parties as soon as possible with a view to an early resolution of the dispute. In these circumstances, I do not propose to refer the matter under section 38 of the Industrial Relations Act 1990.

I encourage the parties to renew their efforts in assisting the Labour Relations Commission to get a mutually agreed settlement to this dispute. It is important that the parties to the dispute re-engage, not just on the basis of their already stated positions but to explore all available options to end this impasse.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Huge challenges face the country. Our economy faces a prolonged slowdown, which is likely to stretch into 2012 if there is not a change of Government. Everyone is feeling the drag from the housing meltdown and the turbulence in the financial markets.

Is the Tánaiste prepared to take her head out of the sand and cope with this urgent and pressing matter, which has been called economic suicide by the Irish Small and Medium Enterprises Association, in a decisive manner which will prioritise the economic well-being of the country, bring forward solutions to resolve the strike and convince the strikers that she will reform the system to get the economy back on track while protecting the workers?

With the Taoiseach predicting that half a million people will be out of work by the end of year, can the Tánaiste justify - other than in her prepared response to my question - the havoc this strike will unleash on business, farming and the construction, tourism and other industries, and the human suffering the resulting unemployment will cause across the country? The strike is affecting hospitals and the new terminal at Dublin Airport, which will have a huge impact on the tourism industry. It is also affecting the roll-out of broadband and several other industries.

It is a matter of urgent priority for the Tánaiste to take action and bring about a solution to this problem as soon as possible. The Irish construction industry is already on its knees. Can the Tánaiste condone the Government's action, which has affected both the electricians and the wider building sector, which will be forced to lay off workers to the detriment of the industry and workers and their families?

I have every sympathy with the electricians' grievances, which are part of the spiralling cutbacks in wages and jobs which have their source in the Government's reckless overheating of the economy. Will the Tánaiste set out an action plan in terms of a real stimulus package with initiatives across the country to solve the present impasse with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and give the country some hope? The country needs hope urgently. I plead with the Tánaiste to give young people and the unemployed real hope for the future. The country cannot sustain 500,000 people out of work by the end of this year. I plead with the Tánaiste to take whatever actions are possible to solve this impasse.

Photo of Mary CoughlanMary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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All Members are anxious that this matter be brought to resolution. Contrary to what Deputy Bannon thinks, my head is not in the sand.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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It appears to be so.

Photo of Mary CoughlanMary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps the Deputy is not familiar with all of the issues and complications which have been part of this registered employment agreement, REA, for a considerable time, the amount of litigation which has taken place, the deliberations of the Labour Court and its recommendation that there be further consideration, particularly on the question of pay but also on the reform of the REA.

The Labour Relations Commission, LRC, has indicated its willingness to facilitate both sides. Following its meeting on Friday last, the national implementation body, NIB, indicated that it could not bring the matter to a conclusion and that an impasse remains. I have asked the LRC to bring both parties together to see if we can bring the matter to a resolution. There are two polarised perspectives.

Good industrial relations are critical. It is important that a resolution is not imposed. That would fly in the face of our industrial relations history, which is voluntary in nature. Through my Department and the LRC, the mechanisms are available by which the matter could be brought to resolution.

Photo of Willie PenroseWillie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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In the last number of days, the Labour Party has urged that intervention in this strategically important industry be undertaken at the earliest possible opportunity. The industrial action taken by more than 10,000 members of the Technical Engineering and Electrical Union, TEEU, is a serious development which could have significant consequences for industrial relations. As was pointed out earlier today by my party leader, the dispute will have a knock-on effect on building sites and on employment generally. As the Tánaiste has said, this is the first major strike in the private sector for some time and it comes in a period of significant economic difficulty for the country. If it is allowed to drag on, it could lead to lay-offs of workers not directly involved in the dispute. Important issues are involved in the dispute for employers and workers and these issues will have to be resolved at some stage by face-to-face dialogue and discussion. It is in everyone's interest that this process of dialogue begins now rather than at the end of a prolonged and costly strike.

This morning I listened carefully to Mr. Eamon Devoy and Mr. Tom Parlon discussing the matter on the radio. There is no point in coming to talks but sitting on one's hands and saying nothing. There must be an element of compromise. From what I heard Mr. Devoy saying this morning, the TEEU is ready to come to talks but there must be a show of positivity. The country does not need a strike. Neither does it need employers arbitrarily undermining registered agreements. All strikes are settled. The time to intervene in this strike is now.

The Labour Party has pointed out that there are powers in the Act which were envisaged for precisely this purpose. Section 38 of the Industrial Relations Act 1990 gives the Minister the power to refer a dispute to the Labour Court or the Labour Relations Commission when the public interest is affected. The Minister is now in continual contact with the Labour Relations Commission. There cannot be a more important public interest than the protection of jobs and the maintenance of an important service. No one doubts the importance of this dispute and the intervention of the Minister is clearly justified.

I listened carefully to the discussion on the radio this morning. Is it not time that REAs were simplified so that everyone has a clear understanding of what is involved in them and their impact on the issues involved? There should be no room for ambiguity. No one should be able to argue that an award is X% while someone else argues that it is X+1%. Earlier, I asked the Tánaiste about the progress of the Industrial Relations Bill. Such clarification would be an important function of such a Bill. The rationalisation of the joint labour committees, JLCs, and the implementation of other measures are important. However, the strengthening of the existing REA system providing for its continued effective operation would ensure that REAs are clear and unambiguous and that everyone understands their effect. This would widen the number of people involved in the REA system. Operational procedures must be improved and the nomination of chairpersons of JLCs should, obviously, follow consultation with social partners.

The Labour Party would support every effort to use the industrial relations machinery to resolve this dispute. Everyone must show willingness to enter talks. Participants must not come to talks with nothing to offer. They must be prepared to be positive in discussions.

If the sum awarded had been paid in 2008 a new REA would reflect the economic conditions pertaining currently. We cannot hark back but I call on all sides to talk. From our contacts with the trade unions, I know that they are eager to progress matters but it takes two to tango and there is no use in starting with preconceived ideas about cutting things off and so on. I appeal for a compromise that will ensure a return to work for everyone involved, from the bodies in question to other affected parties. We need people working at Dublin Airport, the new facility at Lansdowne Road and so on. Everyone should sit down in a positive framework and not set in advance conditions or bottom lines beyond which they will not go. The latter is not the way to start proper and positive negotiations.

Photo of Mary CoughlanMary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I concur with the Deputy, in that people cannot start with the polarised views being expressed by both sides in public. Naturally, the argument has two sides. The Oireachtas has an expectation that the registered employment agreements, REAs, and joint labour committees, JLCs, should be shored up by the Industrial Relations Act. We look forward to the discussion on this point.

It may be unfortunate that both situations are occurring simultaneously but it is important that I articulate again the difficulties experienced in terms of the REA with the electrical contractors. As the Deputy knows, the union is seeking two pay increases and the methodology on achieving them, the analogue system, is being disputed. The employers have indicated that given the economic circumstances, reductions in contract prices and, as the Deputies have articulated, the fact that employers are not necessarily getting paid for the work done, they are in a difficult position.

The House can appreciate both sides of the argument, but we must equally appreciate that the matter must be brought to a resolution one way or the other. The Labour Court recommended that the REA should not be varied or cancelled. However, there was a meeting of minds on the methodology by which pay increases could be reached and on the REA's review. This is a natural industrial relations policy that we would like to see progress, but none of it will occur with this impasse. Rather, it will only occur when the two sides come together.

I fully agree with the Deputy that people will need to leave polarised views elsewhere if they are to determine what can be done to bring this matter to a finality. Trying to position oneself one way or the other is not in the best interests of those one represents or the economy.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing these Private Notice Questions on an important issue. I also thank the Tánaiste for addressing the matter in the House. Like any industrial relations dispute, it is complex. Most of us would understand the complexities, but the House is not equipped to argue every point of it, nor would any of us wish to do so. I do not intend to make it a party political matter because it is not one, but this dispute has a bearing on the wider economy. There are risks to businesses and workers that are not involved in the dispute. The unemployed are also at risk. They would like to re-enter the workforce, but their chances of doing so would be reduced should the dispute turn out the wrong way.

I have three questions for the Tánaiste on two core issues. From my reading of the REA and the Labour Court's determinations, pay increases were due in April 2008 and April 2009. We can argue about the levels, which companies should be analogue companies and so on, but the pay increases were not paid. Any agreement would need to recognise this fact and the back-pay issue. Electricians have received no pay increase since April 2007 whereas almost everyone in the country has received several increases, certainly if they, like Deputies, are covered by the partnership agreements. It is important that employers acknowledge this point.

It is also important that the unions acknowledge that the economy is in a different place. Irrespective of whether we like it, wages and prices among other things must decrease if we are to save jobs, start our recovery and become competitive again. Any agreement would need to recognise that wage rates need to stay at 2007 levels at the least.

If the Tánaiste cares to comment, does she agree with my analysis? Will she join me in asking both sides to moderate the dispute's temperature? An agreement can and will be found, but there is a risk that people could become entrenched in their positions or provoke one another. The temperature could be raised to such a degree that reaching an agreement could be more difficult. Will the Tánaiste join me in calling on both sides to moderate the intensity of the dispute? In particular, we should ask the employers not to put anyone on protective notice for the next few days at least and the unions not to engage in secondary picketing. My definition of the latter is broad, that is, picketing of businesses that are not parties to the dispute.

The Tánaiste does not intend to invoke the relevant section of the Industrial Relations Act 1990. If it transpires that the dispute escalates during this week or if no progress is evident later this week, the Labour Relations Commission is unable to bring the partners together and the National Implementation Body fails, will the Tánaiste be open to the possibility of using the statute to appoint an interlocutor, facilitator or inspector to analyse the situation and bring the two sides together?

Photo of Mary CoughlanMary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Given the context and principle of the Deputy's questions, I agree that it is a time for cool heads. An escalation on either side through words or actions would not bring us to where we want to be. I agree that the temperature in the House, although freezing thanks to the air conditioning, is calm and measured. We would all agree that we wish to see this dispute resolved as quickly as possible. Stating that I would invoke section 38(1) of the Industrial Relations Act 1990 in the event of things not working out would not add to the argument. The Deputy is correct in that there are other mechanisms by which a dispute can be referred to the Labour Court. If we aspire towards a resolution, we should move on the basis of the instruction given to the LRC to bring both parties together.

The intricacies of the dispute between the electrical contractors and the unions grew legs on the basis of a dispute among the employers, two sides of which went to the Labour Court. The High Court intervened and there is an ongoing judicial review of one of the Labour Court's recommendations. It has not been helpful that the situation has been entangled in a web of legality for a considerable period.

My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Kelleher, was in a position to examine the issue of JLCs with employers and unions in the catering and hotel sectors. People are still able to come together. I will keep a watchful eye on matters as they progress and I hope that the strike will not escalate. As the Deputy knows, hearings on injunctions are to be held tomorrow on the basis that the dispute is impacting on companies that are not necessarily involved. We do not want to take from our international and national reputation for social partnership, which has worked well. Let us hope that the arms of the industrial relations mechanisms will facilitate a finality to the matter.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The bottom line is that thousands of jobs are being put at risk. Is the Tánaiste prepared to stand by while firm after firm must place its workforce on protective notice due to this industrial action? Is she aware of the further damage being done to our already fragile international reputation? International firms are expressing concerns about the Irish operations hit by this action. It seriously affects our international reputation as a place of employment and location in which to set up an industry. These issues affect the wider economy also and I therefore plead with the Minister to intervene and bring the process to a satisfactory conclusion by bringing all interested parties on board as quickly as possible. It serves no purpose for the strike to continue.

Photo of Mary CoughlanMary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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A number of companies that contacted my office directly expressed grave concern over the impact of the strike on their productivity and jobs. I am aware of this and have had discussions with a number of companies that are not in the dispute. Two companies have decided to seek injunctions and put staff on protective notice. Workers and all of us in this House take this matter very seriously. It is on this basis that sustaining employment and job creation are very much objectives of the House. As I indicated, everything that can be done through the industrial relations mechanisms will be done.

Photo of Willie PenroseWillie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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The partnership process originated in the 1980s when there was a difficult industrial relations environment. It has played a key role in dealing with a number of issues. Has the Minister spoken, directly or indirectly, to representatives of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions or the Construction Industry Federation to ensure a resolution to the dispute sooner rather than later? As we all know, there will be one when people talk face to face. This will bring some direction to the process in the shorter rather than the medium term. The dispute will probably be resolved in the medium term but we need a resolution in the shorter term. Perhaps the Minister will indicate whether she will pursue discussions to ensure talks continue.

I appeal to everybody involved to moderate their positions. It is important to acknowledge that if there is an REA, with associated complexities, it must be borne in mind. In the context of the new industrial relations (amendment) Bill, it is important that REAs be simplified and made more focused. They should not have analogues and outdated concepts that can lead to ambiguity. Let us have straightforward agreements such that if I am due 10%, I can say I am due that amount without somebody arguing I am misinterpreting the matter and am due 6%.

I do not want to see employers trying at every opportunity to emasculate those with REAs, which agreements serve a purpose. There is a feeling that their doing so is just the first port of call in accelerating a race to the bottom. We cannot tolerate that either.

Photo of Mary CoughlanMary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I do not disagree with that view and we do not want a race to the bottom. However, the simplification of the REA is very important and will provide greater clarity. That will be the next step. I am sure both parties would like a resolution in this regard and I am not aware of people being against simplification.

I have not been in direct contact with either party in the dispute but I have been in contact with them through the Labour Relations Commission. I have deemed this mechanism the most appropriate but I will keep the matter under review.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I concur with Deputy Penrose in that the REA-ERO system needs to be simplified, delineated and modernised. I was interested to note some of the aspects of the REA for the electrical contractors. One part stipulates what tools can and cannot be used. It is extraordinary to state in law the tools that can and cannot be used in the workplace.

Another part of the agreement requires that everyone in the State who is employed as an electrician must be a member of the Technical Engineering & Electrical Union. This is wrong because, although people should have the right to join a union and unions have the right to be recognised, nobody should be prevented from working in any industry if he is not a member of a union. I was surprised to see this is the law of the land. If there is a right to union recognition and collective bargaining, there should also be the right not to be the member of a union if one does not wish to join. One should not be barred from the workplace because one does not have a union card. The law effects such a bar, which is extraordinary.

Will the Minister and all Members join me in asking both sides to de-escalate the dispute? In this regard, we must ask employers not to put anyone on protective notice and ask the unions not to engage in the secondary picketing of businesses that are not party to this dispute and not signatories to the REA.

Photo of Mary CoughlanMary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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It would not be appropriate for me to pre-empt the decision to be made tomorrow on Diageo given that a temporary injunction has been granted. However, we desire a de-escalation of the entire dispute and that people on both sides step down such that the Labour Relations Commission can mediate. I hope this will occur.

The simplification of REAs and EROs will be discussed in the context of the industrial relations Bill. Having listened to discussions in the House over the past year on all industrial relations legislation, I noted many Members forgot about the role of this House. My clear intention is to enhance the scrutiny role of the House in respect of a number of labour relations mechanisms and instruments. This is appropriate.

Many REAs and EROs achieve what would be regarded as the right thing in that they exist to protect employees. Equally, they protect employers against people who do not participate in the agreements and who are undermining or undercutting them. There are two sides to the argument. During the era of the Celtic tiger, people did not have to familiarise themselves with industrial relations law - we might all be to blame for this. Since no major industrial relations issues arose, people were not aware or chose not to be aware of some of the instruments that exist. This point was part of the dispute with the electricians. The Minister of State, Deputy Kelleher, was very anxious to modernise the industrial relations instruments to reflect contemporary reality.

We have had discussions in the House on the joint labour committee for catering. There was a difference between Dún Laoghaire, Dublin city and the rest of the country but we have been able to bring them together, which has proven to be important. The same applies to the hotels sector. As Members have stated, we must modernise agreements such that they reflect modern realities and perhaps provide some flexibility on both sides such that if people come together they can change based on those realities.

From all that has been said by the spokespersons and other Deputies, I gather we are ad idem in our desire to resolve this matter immediately.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Does the Minister agree that this dispute, if allowed to escalate, could have a seriously negative impact on the entire economy during a very sensitive time? Does she agree it is imperative not only that both sides stand down at this stage to enable negotiation at the various levels to which she and others have referred but also that she use all mechanisms available to her to intervene in the dispute a positive way, if necessary? This would ensure that no message is given to the various sectors to the effect that a matter such as the one under discussion can be allowed to escalate and cause obvious devastation for the economy as a whole.

In supporting the points made by other Deputies, I ask the Minister not to be afraid to take any action that must be taken in the national interest, particularly now, to ensure the issues that have caused the dispute are dealt with satisfactorily. One way to do that is through the Industrial Relations (Amendment) Bill. Surely there has been ample time to anticipate and address in the Bill the type of problem that has arisen. Did the Minister know for some time that this dispute was likely to arise and was any action taken in anticipation of it?

Photo of Mary CoughlanMary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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This difficulty between the employers has been going on for some time and has been dragged through judicial review and through the High Court and the Labour Court. There was a hearing at the beginning of the year on whether the registered employment agreement should be removed or amended, which took some time. The Labour Court made its determination and the majority agreed that we had to move on from several of the issues it raised.

It was clear following the discussion with National Implementation Body on Friday that people were too far apart, as the Labour Relations Commission had indicated. The mechanisms available then could not bring the two parties together. Sometimes strike action is inevitable. I do not wish to fuel public opinion on whether it is right or wrong. I agree that it is of grave concern to us all. We also agree, in recognition of the voluntary nature of our industrial relations mechanism, that it is a matter of people coming together.

We will get through this impasse by resolution rather than diktat. Although the labour relations mechanisms have not so far been able to resolve it we can reinstigate them and bring the parties together. This will be a matter for both parties who will have to come together and reach agreement. Any escalation of this will be detrimental and it will be more difficult to pull back. We must avoid an escalation and would like to see a resolution.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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How will the Minister deal with the impact of the economic fall-out from the strike action on our already hard-hit tourism industry which will be further eroded by the enforced work stoppages at Terminal 2 in Dublin Airport? This is the middle of the tourism season and if this is allowed to continue it will have a devastating effect on the tourism industry.

What measures does the Minister intend to put in place to protect hospitals in the event that this strike escalates?

Photo of Mary CoughlanMary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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It would not be prudent to make any assumptions. We hope that people will come together under the LRC and that we can have a meeting of minds. I hope that contingency plans will not be the order of the day.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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We all hope that but one does not bolt the door after the horse has gone.

Photo of Mary CoughlanMary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The stable is still open.