Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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Question 10: To ask the Minister for Education and Science further to Parliamentary Question No. 495 of 23 June 2009, if he will change the system of information storage in order that his Department can access, horizontally, information such as this, and other information regarding schools at primary level in order that his Department is properly equipped to efficiently manage the primary school building infrastructure; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [26685/09]

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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In order to improve the information systems available to my Department in respect of primary and post-primary schools, my Department's forward planning section uses geographical information system, GIS, technology which contains a certain level of information on all schools in the country at both primary and post-primary level. I understand the planning and building unit recently gave a demonstration to the members of the Joint Committee on Education and Science on the use of the GIS. A range of demographic information is linked to the relevant schools and this allows the Department to map various demographic scenarios at local level.

To further expand and improve the capabilities of the system, arrangements are being made to conduct a survey of accommodation at primary and post-primary level which will be linked to the GIS. It is intended that this will establish the position in respect of the extent of all school accommodation. The specifications for this inventory are being finalised at present.

As the Deputy will be aware, I also recently instructed my Department to compile information on school ownership details on the basis of files available in the Department. In general, the Department's property management files contain details of indentures entered into by the State with the respective school patrons. The primary purpose of these indentures was to protect the interest of the State in buildings constructed on sites not in its ownership. Due to the fact that this system of indentures has been in place since the commencement of the primary school system, the vast bulk of these legal documents predates the introduction of modern information technology systems. Indeed, many of these documents predate the foundation of the State.

As part of scoping out the scale of the exercise relating to establishing the ownership details of school properties, my officials recently met representatives from the Property Registration Authority and the Chief State Solicitor's office to ascertain the extent of the work involved and to determine if the information could be obtained by other means. However, it is clear that it will not be possible to obtain this information other than by a painstaking process of researching each individual file. It is also clear that compiling a comprehensive database of school ownership will be quite a complex task and will take some time to complete. I have asked my Department to provide me with a preliminary report on the timescale of this exercise and a full assessment of what is involved in terms of both staffing and financial resources.

In the meantime, my Department is finalising a list of school details setting out the names and addresses of schools, their roll numbers and details of the patron of each national school. I will arrange to have this information forwarded to those Deputies who have requested it as soon is it has been compiled.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I thank the Minister for his reply and I sympathise with him in respect of the difficulties he is experiencing. The Minister did not establish the Department of Education and Science and was not responsible for its operation over a long period.

It is incredible that some form of basic spreadsheet on which the information to which the question refers is not available. Deputies were treated to a very good presentation by officials from the Department's offices in Tullamore and were suitably impressed. In order to obtain the kind of lateral productivity to which many people have recently referred, I suggest that the Department work in conjunction with the VECs - which have a great deal of expertise at their disposal - and local authorities in respect of this matter. We should ask the engineering and planning departments of the various local authorities to carry out a conditions analysis in respect of existing schools. Those who work in these departments are public servants and they are not doing anything at present because there is no building work taking place. Some of the larger VECs have the capacity to do precisely what I have suggested.

Obviously, however, none of this has happened. We are going to be hit with a tsunami in the near future, with 25,000 additional pupils entering the system each year. Beginning this year and on the assumption that there will be 30 pupils per class, there will be a need for an extra 760 classrooms per year. The Department is not equipped to deal with this increase in demand and will only be able to do so it if receives assistance. I suggest that such assistance should be obtained from within the public service and that the Minister should not plead that there is a lack of resources.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I do not agree with the Deputy. The statistics available to me indicate there will be an additional 50,000 students in the system by 2015.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The figures to which I refer come from a document published by the Department of Education and Science in July 2008.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I am referring to the most recent information that has been made available to me.

With regard to the Department and the use of the GIS, two years ago we had a serious problem in the context of finding accommodation for the various pupils who entered the system. Last year, however, as a result of outstanding co-operation on the part of county and city managers, the Department accurately predicted what would be the level of demand. I am confident that we will continue to anticipate the emerging needs, particularly in light of the co-operation that exists among the various entities. The current system is similar to a one-stop-shop and I am delighted with the current level of co-operation. I thank local authorities and city and county managers for that co-operation. What we are doing appears to be working extremely well. The new GIS system can continue to expand.

However, I must consider priorities and as a former Minister for Finance, Deputy Quinn is aware of how one prioritises one's spending within a Department. On foot of the exposition I have provided to him, he can see that putting in place the information he seeks will be an extremely difficult and long-term process. How strategic is this in the shorter term? Is it more strategic for me to spend money that will ensure I can put a roof over the children who will attend our schools in the present generation? Is it more strategic for me to understand that there are indentures in place that will protect the investment the State has made over time? At a time of limited resources, my emphasis must be on providing accommodation for the pupils who will enter the system and I consider that to be my first priority. I do not wish to take from what Deputy Quinn seeks to achieve, nor does this take from my desire to achieve it either, but the pace at which this can be done and the difficulty relating to collating all that material, some of which predates the establishment of primary schools, means this is a difficult and onerous task that will not be delivered within a short time.

Written Answers follow Adjournment Debate.