Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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Question 9: To ask the Minister for Education and Science his views on convening a national forum to discuss the future of school patronage in schools here; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [26680/09]

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Changes in the landscape of Irish society as well as current economic constraints provide a backdrop for the challenges facing our education system over the coming years. In June last year I hosted a conference on the governance challenges for future primary school needs and the need to provide an opportunity for patron bodies, the wider education partners and others with an interest in the future of our primary education system to collectively reflect on the challenges we face in shaping the system to respond appropriately to changing societal demands.

Participants at the conference considered the long-term challenges of organising and developing our system of school governance to accommodate societal change and new parental demands and aspirations will be subject to consideration. The conference also dealt with a range of associated issues such as the challenges of capacity constraints, the provision of choice for parents, ensuring whole community inclusion in our schools as well as the implications of societal change on enrolment policies and approaches to the teaching of religion in multi-faith environments. Discussions focused on the particular challenges of ethos and inclusion for patron bodies, under old and new patronage models, including the model to be piloted in two community national schools, Scoil Ghráinne, Phibblestown, and Scoil Choilm, Porterstown from September 2008. While I would not rule out the possibility of holding a further forum on school patronage in the future, I believe that considerable further thought must be given to the timing and format of such an event.

My Department is currently consulting directly with patrons about specific areas where the establishment of new schools will be required and how emerging demands in these areas will be addressed and, as part of the process, will be seeking details of any schools where a change of patronage might potentially be relevant. A review of procedures for establishment of new primary schools is being undertaken by the commission on school accommodation. Among the range of issues being considered is the issue of patronage including the criteria that must be met to become a patron and the circumstances where changes to patronage may be warranted.

I believe it would be premature to embark on a national discussion on school patronage until these matters have been progressed.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Is the Minister familiar with the comments of probably the largest patron in the country, with responsibility for one seventh of all the primary schools in the country? I refer to Archbishop Diarmuid Martin, who said at a Dublin gathering of the IPPN that the dominance of his patronage was a legacy of the past which no longer reflected the needs either of his church or the community.

Is the Minister aware that his Department has stopped the patron body of gaelscoileanna, An Foras Pátrúnachta, from moving its patronage model to a level of permanence? I refer specifically to Coláiste Chill Dara in this case, where the Department is refusing to allow its status to change from conditional to permanent, thereby blocking its funding. The Minister cannot make a decision on extending patronage to Educate Together for secondary schools, even though his Department is planning schools in the Lucan area.

Whatever form it takes, the archbishop has suggested a forum. I am aware that officials from the Department met with him after his comments at Kilmainham. This is not an issue about new schools but one where an existing patron of existing schools says he does not want to have them. How does the Minister deal with that? We also have problem with a patron who, according to all the evidence in the public domain, is not carrying out its duties in regard to Cabra.

What role is there in this for the Department of Education and Science? Its documentation suggests there will be an extra 100,000 pupils by 2013 on top of the existing 500,000. Does the Minister accept there is a crisis in patronage that must be dealt with quickly?

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I met with representatives of Educate Together last week and indicated that I would give consideration to its application for patronage at second level during the summer months. However, I saw this as a serious policy issue and one I would have to bring to Government, which I propose to do.

My officials met Archbishop Diarmuid Martin in late 2007. We wanted to discuss statements he had made prior to that on the possibility of divesting patronage of primary schools in the archdiocese. We also had a separate meeting with Bishop Leo O'Reilly, who is the chair of the Bishops' Education Commission. We asked Archbishop Martin to let us know if he had specific locations in mind. He said he had no specific locations in mind where one or more schools under his patronage could transfer to another patron but that it might arise some time in the future. The discussion centred on the different issues that might arise and the need for such changes to be planned and managed. It also focused on the desirability of individual schools to enter into consultations with all stakeholders, such as parents and teachers, and it was agreed that the archbishop would make contact with us at an early stage if an opportunity arose to change patronage. Archbishop Martin has never made contact with us on that matter. At the recent IPPN conference the archbishop made a statement on similar lines, as a result of which we will consult directly with him again to see exactly what he has in mind. We will also consult with Bishop O'Reilly but the Department is not certain the Archbishop of Dublin and the chair of the Irish Bishops' Conference are in unison on this issue. It is only right and fair that we get a clear indication from the Catholic Church of its views on patronage across the country.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I suggest the best way to hold further discussions is some form of open dialogue.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Can we get beyond the squinting windows of dialogue and the cultural deference of the past? Can we have a seminar in which everybody can hear what the participants are saying? Archbishop Martin has an obligation to the Minister in exercising his duties as patron because the Minister is paying the tab for the 477 schools - 93% of the total - which are involved in Dublin. The current operator is saying he is a reluctant patron and I can understand some of the difficulties. However, instead of polite conversations with officials, can we hold the dialogue in the open? Some officials are characterised in the Ryan report as having a culture of deference so can we help to weaken that deference? This concerns the futures of all our children.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I did not rule out a forum in the future. Equally, however, I held a conference in June of last year in Kilmainham at which representatives all of the main patrons spoke.

It is important to remember that there is also a commission on school accommodation in place. I emphasised to the commission that I wanted it to report to me in respect of school patronage. I see this as a working forum in progress in respect of patronage, particularly as all the patron bodies are represented on it.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Is the Minister referring to the commission on school accommodation?

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. The various patron bodies are represented on this commission.

In addition, there are two model VEC schools in operation. It is our intention to evaluate what will be the results of these two pilot projects. It is very early days, however, as these schools have been in operation for under a year. We will await the outcome of these pilot projects.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Reading between the lines, it is fair to state that the Minister has a more open position in respect of this matter than his predecessor. It was his predecessor's decision to hold the half-day conference.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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It was announced on the eve of the INTO conference.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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That is correct and it was seen as a sop to the INTO. It was not, therefore, the Minister's decision to hold that conference but he was obliged to give a speech at it. However, let us leave that matter to one side.

I believe the Minister has an open view on this matter. If ever there was a need for a talking shop in respect of a particular matter, then this is it. Such a talking shop would have to be in operation for a long period because there are no easy solutions in respect of this matter.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Yes.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Issues such as patronage, ownership, governance and whether to have religious or non-religious schools are of considerable concern to society. I request that the Minister reconsider this issue during the summer recess. I understand that the deadline regarding the submission of working papers to the commission on school accommodation is set for later this month. If, therefore, I wanted to submit my views, I only have a number of weeks in which to do so. At the very least, the deadline should be extended because this matter does not merely involve Bishop O'Reilly, Archbishop Martin, Deputy Quinn or me-----

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Those days are gone.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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-----it also relates to parents being allowed to listen, in public, to the views of all the partners in education, engage with those views and pose questions in an open manner. Bilaterals are a thing of the past. I request that the Minister give further consideration to this matter during the next two months or so, particularly as he seems to be more open in respect of it than his predecessor.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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As already stated, there is no reason a forum could not be established in the future. However, I must be informed as to the exact position. I have put in place the commission on school accommodation, on which all of the patron bodies are represented and to which they are all providing of their expertise, and I would like to await the results of its deliberations. In addition, particular groups have indicated to me that they are seeking movement in respect of the matter of patronage. I have also put in place two model schools, in the form of pilot projects, and I want to measure the success of these schools and discover what can be learned from their operation. This is particularly relevant in the context of the forum we will obviously need to establish some time in the future.

What is being done in this area is work in progress. It would be premature to establish a forum at this stage. I intend to await the results of the commission's work and the evaluation of the operation of the model schools. At that point, it would be important to establish an open forum.