Dáil debates
Wednesday, 1 July 2009
Ceisteanna - Questions
Programmes for Government.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach when the review of the programme for Government will be completed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23566/09]
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach the process in place to support the review of the programme for Government; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [24672/09]
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach the promised timetable for the review of the programme for Government; the format the review will take; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [25665/09]
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, together.
As I have stated previously in the House, it is the Government's intention to use the coming period to afford the Government partners the opportunity to look at how we are progressing in achieving the goals set out in the programme for Government. We will pursue this work throughout the summer recess.
The programme for Government makes clear that its delivery is based on a growth rate of 4.5%. It was negotiated prior to the worst global economic downturn since the 1930s. Our review is about ensuring the programme for Government reflects current economic realities. There is also a precedent for such a review, as has been the case in previous Governments. Along with reviewing the existing programme, a review will also allow us to see where the various policies we have developed over the past two years can be better integrated into our plans for developing Ireland up to 2012. I particularly refer to the ambitious Smart Economy document which we published before Christmas. The review will also underline the considerable amount of the programme for Government that has already been achieved.
To date, organisations such as the IMF, the European Commission and the ESRI have broadly recognised that the policies we are pursuing are the right ones to get Ireland working again. The review will be informed by the five-year economic plan as agreed with the European Commission, the work of the Commission on Taxation which is due to report next month, and the analysis and advice provided to Government by the special group on public service numbers and expenditure programmes. We are determined to undertake a comprehensive review of the programme and we expect to have this process brought to a conclusion in the autumn.
11:00 am
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I understand Fianna Fáil's partner in government, the Green Party, is to have a party conference on 18 July to discover whether party members can find it within themselves to support the second referendum on the Lisbon treaty. I understand members will also discuss their views on a review of the programme for Government. Has the Taoiseach had any discussions with the Green Party about the programme for Government following the European and local elections? Has he put in place a process for a review from his own perspective? What timeline does he envisage for a review of the programme to be completed? In other words, following the Taoiseach's discussions with the Green Party, when will we have a revised programme for Government.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As I stated, the existing programme continues to be implemented. We are simply taking account of the fact that we have had a serious downturn in the world economy, the worst, as I noted, since the 1930s. This means we have to review the assumptions that underlie the programme, define our priorities and move forward with the review, the Commission on Taxation and the various reports coming to Government and feeding into the Estimates and budgetary processes. This will be an important aspect of the Government's work in the coming months, quite apart from the fact that we wish to conduct this review in any event. An internal party consultation is taking place and as soon as the Dáil rises we will be able to put our minds to engaging in a review process over the summer and into the autumn. We will return to the House with a revised programme when the Dáil resumes.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have a question in respect of a matter of concern to people all over the country, namely, the capital programme. In 2008, some 300 schools were in planning and 1,000 in the pre-planning process. The school building programme for 2009 has been reduced by €30 million. The Government has scrapped the minor works programme for 2008 and 2009, while the summer works programme, which was abolished in 2008, was partly restored this year. There is a lack of transparency and effectiveness in the entire school building programme.
As has been pointed out on numerous occasions, 41,000 pupils are being taught in 2,253 prefabricated buildings in 900 schools nationwide. The Taoiseach and I have evidence - it has also been produced by Deputy Quinn on numerous occasions - that the cost of building with blocks and concrete using generic designs is now cheaper than the cost of providing prefabricated buildings. In Ratoath, County Meath, more than €1.08 million was spent on prefabs in 2008. This is disgraceful.
May I assume that the school building programme will not be axed in the review of the programme for Government given that we know better value is available because tenders are coming in 20% lower than previously? This will provide thousands of jobs as well as facilities for children for the next 50 years. If we are serious about being competitive when the upturn in the global economy takes place, we must have facilities which teachers, pupils and parents know are capable of meeting demands. This is a mechanical and structural position.
Will the Taoiseach assure me that in the review of the programme for Government he will conduct with his Government's partners, the Green Party, will not result in the school building programme being axed? Will the Government take some interest in pushing forward schools building projects which can now proceed given that increased value can be achieved through decreased costs, contractors are available and jobs can be created? Will the Taoiseach give me that guarantee?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I do not know from where Deputy Kenny is getting his information because he is totally wrong. More than 110 major school projects are being conducted this year. A summer works programme is taking place this year, of which 1,100 schools are beneficiaries. I do not know what the Deputy is talking about when he states there is no summer works scheme. The summer works scheme was introduced-----
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am not talking about that scheme. I am talking about the school projects the Government can release.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputy wants to answer the questions, I will sit down and listen to the questions and answers.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I did not ask the Taoiseach how many school buildings were being built.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kenny asked five or six questions and I will answer them all.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I did not ask how many schools were being built. I have that information.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I know the Deputy did not ask that question but he is trying to suggest that no schools are being built. He is seeking a commitment from me that I will not axe the school building programme.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We have no intention of axing the programme. This Government built more schools in ten months that Deputy Kenny's party built in ten years.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Funding for the school building programme has been cut by €30 million.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny asked a question and must allow the Taoiseach to answer it.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Government got rid of the summer works scheme.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Is Deputy Kenny or Deputy Kehoe asking the questions? Can the Fine Gael Deputies organise themselves and create some order? Deputy Kehoe is supposed to be his party's Whip.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach got out of the wrong side of bed this morning.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will ask the Taoiseach a question.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I insist Deputy Kenny allow the Taoiseach to answer the question, as he is trying to do. If the Deputy wants to ask a subsequent question, he may do so.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Hold on a second, a Cheann Comhairle. I did not ask if the school building programme had been suspended.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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If the Taoiseach answered the question, there would not be a problem.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Comments must be addressed through the Chair.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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A suggestion was made that no school building was taking place.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is an outrageous remark. No such suggestion was made.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kenny asked me if the Government would axe the school building programme.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I stated funding for the programme had been reduced by €30 million. Is that correct?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy asked me four times if I would axe the programme.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny must allow the Taoiseach to answer the question. He will have another opportunity.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I did not ask the Taoiseach if a school building programme was in progress.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kenny does not know what he asked. That is his problem.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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A little humility from the Taoiseach would be welcome.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Allen has nothing to do with this.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Every time I stand up I am interrupted. If I am to listen in silence and respect, I ask for reciprocation.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I have listened to the Taoiseach waffling for the past 20 minutes without saying a word.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputies opposite are not prepared to reciprocate, I will not answer the questions. What would be the point?
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is a waffler.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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This must stop. I will have to ask Deputy Allen to leave the Chamber if he continues to interrupt.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I listened in silence to the Taoiseach waffle.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is interrupting himself.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We must have order. Allow the Taoiseach to answer the question, without interruption.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We will give him a chance.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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When the Taoiseach was Minister for Finance-----
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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While I am reluctant to do so, I will ask Deputy Allen to leave the Chamber if he continues to interrupt.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should carry on and speak to the world.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kenny asked me if the Government would axe the school building programme. We have no intention of axing the programme. We have a school building programme that is-----
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is there something wrong with the Taoiseach's hearing? I did not ask him if he would axe the school building programme.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please allow the Taoiseach to continue.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will not put up with this any longer. The Taoiseach has made three allegations referring to questions I did not ask.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will suspend the House if this continues.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should check the record. I did not ask him if he would axe the school building programme.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The record will show what Deputy Kenny asked.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It will show I did not ask the Taoiseach whether the Government would axe the school building programme.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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This kind of interruption cannot be allowed to continue. I will suspend the House.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It will show I asked if the Government had reduced funding for the school building programme by €30 million.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The House is suspended.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I do not like to suspend the House because that is not an ideal situation. To be fair to Members, it is not something we have had to do on many occasions because there is usually co-operation across all sides of the House. Unfortunately, however, if Members rise in their places without being called and if they do not acknowledge or speak through the Chair, we will have a problem and our business will descend into chaos. It is just a question of reverting to normality.
The Taoiseach might be the first to speak.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kenny raised a number of questions about the programme for Government. He asked about specific issues and the status of policies in the programme. He sought a commitment that we were not going to axe school-building next year. There is a rule in the House that specific questions are referred to the relevant line Ministers. However, I have no problem in dealing with the questions to the best of my ability, as I always seek to accommodate the Deputy with the facts.
The facts concerning this matter are that the capital programme for all three levels of education last year was €859 million. This year it works out at about €841 million. When one takes into account that tender prices have dropped by 20%, the output in 2009 for the money that is being allocated will be greater than the output obtained for €859 million last year. There was a premise in the question which suggested that there was a cutback in our school building programme this year, which is not correct when one looks at the output itself. What is not being taken into account in the contention made by Deputy Kenny is that tender prices are reduced by 20% this year compared to last year. That being the case, I was refuting the contention being made by the Deputy in his questions, first, that we were cutting back on school building and, second, in seeking a commitment from me that we would not axe it - in other words, that we would not eliminate school building from our capital programme next year. We have no intention of eliminating school building from our programme next year. Approximately €650 million has been spent this year on first and second levels.
The Deputy then went on to ask about temporary accommodation, which has been a feature of providing for school buildings. One of the policy objectives is to reduce the number of temporary buildings we have over a period. In fast developing areas we have thankfully seen the Department's ability to cope by way of modular buildings which are more easily and quickly constructed. In that way it is possible to provide school classrooms under that arrangement within a 16-week period. That has been achieved in various locations, particularly in fast-developing areas around Dublin. It is true that we continue to have prefabricated buildings, but of the total number of classrooms the percentage is quite low. It is a continuing priority for successive Governments to deal with that matter, but there will always be cases for temporary accommodation because of increased enrolment over a shot period. Such accommodation, which can still be good and adequate, is provided pending a capital project being prepared for such schools for the purpose of extensions. That goes though the various phases, as the Deputy will know, since I recall that on one occasion he was a Minister of State at the Department of Education. I had the pleasure of going on many deputations to his office along with former Deputy Tom Enright. There may not have been a lot of success because there were not many resources around at the time.
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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A few of them are still waiting.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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They are but Deputy Enright will acknowledge that there has been considerable progress in that area in recent years.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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From memory that might cover some of the questions Deputy Kenny raised.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am glad to see that there will be no cutbacks in the programme.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will call Deputy Kenny later.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I hope he means it.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Gilmore.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I wish to go back to the earlier part of the Taoiseach's reply with regard to the programme for Government. Did I hear him correctly as saying that the Government will publish a revised programme for Government before we come back in the autumn? Perhaps he will clarify that for us. Who will be a party to the revision of the programme? Will there be a bilateral discussion between Fianna Fáil and the Green Party or will there be any involvement by the former Progressive Democrats? Are they still considered to be part of the Government? Will the Independent Deputies on the Government side have any involvement in renegotiating the programme?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Do not forget Jackie.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Will this be a total revision of the programme for Government? I noticed that the Taoiseach was talking about revising the economic assumptions which underlay the programme, including the assumption of 4.5% growth which was the basis of the programme. Therefore will there be a total revision or does it only concern those aspects of the programme that arise from the changed economic circumstances that will the subject of revision? Has there been any exchange of papers by any of the parties in Government in respect of a revision of the programme? What is the status of the programme vis-À-vis Mr. McCarthy's an bord snip nua? Does the Taoiseach expect that the report of that body will comment on the commitments in the programme for Government? In respect of the arrangements that were made with Independent Deputies - which the latter say they have in writing and which relate to commitments on public expenditure, but which were never published - was the McCarthy group given access to the written documents the Independent Deputies claim they made with the Government in respect of certain expenditure items?
Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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It is like the third secret of Fatima - no one knows what they are.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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They are wreaking havoc.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Does the Taoiseach have a copy of them?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As regards Deputy Gilmore's questions, first, the review of the programme for Government will be formally undertaken when the Dáil rises. It will be based on prior consultation that has taken place within the parties themselves to progress the review of the programme over the course of the autumn. When the Dáil resumes for the next session, as envisaged in late September or early October, I am hopeful that we will have a reviewed programme in place.
Second, the committee to look into spending programmes and public service numbers is reviewing all spending programmes. It is examining every area of expenditure and Government activity. It will be reporting to us and making recommendations. Ultimately, what recommendations are accepted and how we proceed will be a matter for decision by Cabinet.
Third, as regards the review of the programme, the discussions will take place between ourselves and the Green Party, and the Cabinet will be involved. I will keep those who support the Government briefed on the outcome of those discussions. In addition, I will ensure that we maintain the support of those Deputies who are supporting the Government on the basis of our commitment to bringing growth and restoring order to our public finances.
Fourth, all areas of policy will be reviewed in the programme. All social policy objectives are predicated on financial resources. With regard to changes in the supplementary budget figures, the capital spend between 2009 and 2013, for example, envisages over €31 billion in expenditure. That is a modification of the original spend envisaged in the national development plan, which was predicated on 4.5% growth. These adjustments in policy objectives and priorities are already part of the ongoing Estimates and budgetary process. The review of the programme, however, will take into account what our economic strategy will be, in light of the current economic circumstances which are quite different from those that pertained in June 2007 when the programme was first negotiated. The assumptions therein were similar to those by all parties in respect of the manifesto commitments they made when going before the people in 2007.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach said that a revised programme for Government would be in place before we return in the autumn.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Will it be published? When we previously had questions on the programme for Government in the House we pointed out that the economic circumstances had changed and the assumptions which underlaid the programme for Government had also changed. The existing programme for Government is a work of fiction in these circumstances. When was the decision taken to review the programme?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The decision to review the programme for Government was made at a Cabinet meeting in recent weeks. As far back as March, I indicated that the changed economic circumstances were such that priorities had to be reset. I also made the point that all programmes for Government contain a paragraph which confirms that the delivery of these programme commitments are subject to stable public finances and the availability of resources.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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That would mean a revised programme for Government.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Who is involved in the review of the programme for Government? Is it a case that each Minister has been asked to address his or her respective areas of interest within the programme? Does that involve an appraisal of the cost of measures that the Government wishes to see continued? Is it a process that is solely between the two parties in Government, and between the Taoiseach and Deputy John Gormley?
What is the situation between the Government and independent Deputies Harney, Grealish, Lowry and Healy Rae? What is the position on their respective areas of interest and agreements, beginning with the role of the Progressive Democrats in the negotiation of the programme for Government after the 2007 general election and continuing with the commitments which the other independent Deputies claim to have secured from the Government? They keep these commitments under wraps and away from public scrutiny. Is it the case that all of these matters will be addressed and that the detail of a new programme for Government will be published? Will it be debated in this House after the summer recess?
The section on social affairs in the current programme for Government states that the Government will continue to maintain the value of the lowest rate of social welfare payments, as agreed in the national action plan on social inclusion. Does the Taoiseach accept that such a commitment is crucial? Any tinkering with the supports for people dependent on social welfare will lead to the risk of poverty, especially among young people who are in family arrangements that are dependent on social welfare. There is currently a softening up effort of the electorate in advance of December's budget, particularly those who are dependent on social welfare. Can the Taoiseach give an assurance this morning that the commitment to the national action plan on social inclusion will be honoured after the agreement on the new programme for Government and after the budget expected later this year?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The working method to be decided by the parties will emerge, based on the political discussions that will take place between now and the autumn. We will come forward with a reviewed programme before the return of the Dáil in late September. The method to be adopted is a matter for the parties concerned, and we will proceed on a pragmatic basis. We intend to maintain majority support for the programme, including the support of Independent Deputies for which we are grateful, in the interest of bringing stability back to the country's finances and ensuring that we work our way through the biggest economic crisis to the hit the world economy since the 1930s. That is the work that will be undertaken over the next three years and we hope to have the support of sufficient Members of this House to do so.
Subject to the availability of resources, we will continue to give the greatest possible priority to continue with the school building programme, as I mentioned to Deputy Kenny in a previous reply. The amount of resources that provide for social welfare is at a record level. Apart from the recent phenomenon of rising unemployment, the rates and provisions for social welfare recipients is a record of which I am very proud, as a member of successive Governments. Deputy Ó Caoláin has asked about maintaining basic rates, but we have exceeded the rates to maintain standards of living for those on pensions in those periods when we had resources available to us. In some cases, the rate of increase in social welfare in any given year was four times the rate of inflation. That is rightly the case because we were seeking to achieve social objectives arising out of the success of the economic policies that were being pursued at the time.
We are now in a new situation but I do not accept the allegation that the public is being softened up. This is about confronting the magnitude of the problems that the country faces and which will require difficult choices. All areas of expenditure have to be examined in an objective fashion, in an effort to bring us through this period. We need to know the sustainable level of expenditure that this country can provide, given the current level of our revenues. We need to know how soon we can return growth to the economy and bring more revenues to the Exchequer so that we can rebuild and go further again.
As a member of the euro area we are required under the Stability and Growth Pact rules to bring our deficits back to less than 3% by 2013. That is an agreement we have with partners in the EU and this set of rules applies to any Government in the coming years. It is not a question of softening up anybody, but a question of making sure that everyone has a clear understanding of the magnitude of the challenges that face us, the choices confronting us and how we are going to proceed. That is a matter of political choice about which there will be much political debate.
This is not a cynical exercise. It is about bringing to the attention of the people the state of the public finances, the choices we have, and the spending programmes that must be examined. Ultimately, it will be a decision of the Cabinet and of this House. That is the democratic nature of our politics and is the serious task that the Government intends to undertake in the coming months.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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With the announcement this morning that 413,000 people are on the live register, does the Taoiseach accept that the current level of jobseeker's allowance at €204.30 as a basic payment for those over 20 is barely set at survival levels? No one in this House could anticipate surviving on €204.30 per week. This is against the backdrop of there being no jobs available because the Government has clearly failed to address that critical need not only in terms of job retention but job creation. That is the critical failure of this Government to address holistically the challenge that has presented itself over the past 12 months.
How in heaven's name does the Taoiseach believe a further reduction in social welfare supports will, in any way, be a contribution to addressing the needs of our people? We will further penalise the least well off in society, remove from them any modicum of survival levels and further restrict their potential to contribute in terms of turnover in spending power in their respective communities. The whole thing is a cycle of decline which will continue to be fed by this Government if it pursues this course.
I appeal to the Taoiseach to recognise that this will lead to major social upheaval and great pain for the least well off in society. As he has done in regard to the schools building programme, will he put to rest and give peace of mind to the 413,000 people and their families who are dependent on social welfare that they will not face an even harder and more straitened Christmas following the budget later this year?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I remind the Deputy that when we came into office the rate about which he spoke was equivalent to €93 per week. We increased it. I never suggest social welfare rates provide a great standard of living for people who are dependent on them and that is why we must be very careful about how we proceed and protect the most vulnerable in our society to the greatest extent we possibly can in the context of where we are.
We will borrow €22 billion to €23 billion this year. We need €72 million per week to maintain the current level of services. The Government is not in a position ad infinitum or over the short term, never mind over the medium term, to maintain that level of deficit budgeting because it will not be able to provide it. Look at what people in employment must face in terms of reduced pay, increased levies or taxes or the various policies we have had to implement to take cognisance of the new situation the country is in, which is not unique from other countries. However, we must deal with our issues in a responsible way.
People's standards of living are going back to 2004-05 levels. One should consider the standards of living people enjoyed ten or five years before that. I am trying to bring a sense of perspective to what we are being asked to do. Of course, no one wants to go back; everyone wants to forge forward. We have been doing that for ten or 12 years. During that time hundreds of thousands of working families were taken out of the tax net and hundreds of thousands of people paid less taxes. Some 800,000 more jobs were created during the course of the Administrations in which I served since 1997. We are now seeing some job losses because of the current situation.
Rather than paint an apocalyptic picture, we must try to maintain a sense of perspective because we must be able to communicate to the people the level of the challenge and what we are asking of them. The reason we must consider these options, difficult though they may be, is that it is not a sustainable position in the context of the current public finances to suggest, as Deputy Ó Caoláin has done, that there are areas of expenditure which are immune from consideration. If the total level of funds are coming in at €32 billion or €33 billion this year and the total spend is €55 billion, for how long or how often does the Deputy believe we can tell the people that can be maintained? It cannot be maintained and we must be honest and straightforward with the people.
We must then decide on the political choices within those realities with which we must contend. Deputy Ó Caoláin can argue his case if he wants to see protection of the €21.3 billion social welfare spend in all respects and in every circumstance. That is one third of spend, another third is public sector pay and pensions and the remaining third is the cost of providing public services.
Does Deputy Ó Caoláin want to take the amount of money, which we must take out, totally out of the delivery cost of providing public services to the exclusion of everything else? What impact will that have? The Deputy often speaks about the need to maintain service levels in the public service. He cannot have it every way. One cannot count twice or not count at all.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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It is a pity the Taoiseach did not learn to count a couple of years ago.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We must confront the people with this. These are the difficult choices. Whoever has the privilege of having a seal of office in this democracy will have to face the same choices and issues.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am all for having a rational debate but if we are not going to have one and if some people are immune from having to face these realities, put forward a proposition-----
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should face the realities of what he caused.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----and make commitments left, right and centre before they sit down and work out how we will get through this difficulty, I do not believe, nor do I think many of the people believe, there is any reality to that.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is like the Taoiseach's programme for Government.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We must set out challenges and debate these issues in the coming months. Let us do so on the basis that we are trying to come forward with an outcome which gets us through this. The current financial position would not be accepted by anybody taking up the responsibilities we hold. If that is the case, the clear implication is that one cannot maintain this level of spend on the basis of the revenues currently coming forward. What one must do is cut back in some areas. We will come forward again when growth returns. Growth will play its part in bringing forward further revenues into the economy. Certain major structural changes must take place for that to happen.
It is not as simple or as cut and dry as Deputy Ó Caoláin suggested.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I have not suggested that at all. We are very aware of how complex-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has his view but his view has the luxury of Opposition.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is the responsibility of the Opposition.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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He can suggest that everything can be kept ticking along, we will find some way through, we will sort it out somehow and €25 billion will be found somewhere next year and another €25 billion the following one.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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No. There are alternatives and we have submitted our proposals to-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I know the Deputy has.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We are not talking in the dark here.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We are talking in the dark in that I do not believe the Deputy's proposals are the means by which we can maintain jobs to the greatest extent possible while at the same time restore order to our public finances. That is my view; the Deputy has a different one. The people have spoken and this House reflects that.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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When the Taoiseach was laying the foundations for the collapse of this economy, we outlined sane and sensible proposals.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin should not interrupt. He should let the Taoiseach finish.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach has finished.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am not sure what the Ceann Comhairle's rules are but the Taoiseach is in a privileged position. On the last three occasions he answered questions, he spoke for at least 20 minutes. The Ceann Comhairle interprets the rules his way and he will shut me and Deputy Gilmore up very quickly.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I never shut the Deputy up.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not object to hearing the Taoiseach speak but we get a 20 minute lecture on each occasion.
In response to Deputy Ó Caoláin, the Taoiseach spoke about being honest and straightforward, about the democratic politics we have here - 75% of the people might have voted against the Government in the recent elections - and about being straight with the facts. When he spoke about the unemployment figures on Leaders' Questions, he said this was the lowest rate of increase in a long time and he spoke of seasonally adjusted figures. I beg to differ with the Taoiseach because I am speaking about people signing on the register. The figures for January, February, March, April, May and June were 36,498, 26,576, 16,384, 13,177, 12,423 and 21,721, respectively.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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A slight increase last month.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach said this was the slowest rate of increase and that it was actually decreasing. It means 21,721 extra men and women signed on the dole. In the first six months of the year, 127,000, that is 1,000 every day, have signed on.
If we are to be straightforward and up-front with the facts, these are the figures that must be recognised, not the seasonally adjusted figures. They refer to people, men and women, who go every week to the social welfare exchanges to sign on. For June, this is 21,712 extra men and women yet the Taoiseach lectured us this morning on seasonally adjusted figures with a Department of Finance response claiming this is the slowest rate of increase. If we are talking about getting out of this national crisis and dealing with it in an air of reality, will the Taoiseach accept it is 21,712 more people unemployed, an increase of 1,000 people every day?
Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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What is the position concerning the debt-to-GDP ratio? In the past 12 months, the Taoiseach frequently gave the House figures stating it has increased from the 20% mark to the 40% mark. At one stage he stated it was rising beyond 49% and suggested it may reach 100% before the end of the year.
It is the political issue, not the exact details, that are of concern. Has there been a Government decision on using this window of opportunity for borrowing? For example, the latest tranche of money provided to Anglo Irish Bank came from the Central Bank's surplus funds. Does the Taoiseach intend to allow the debt-to-GDP ratio increase to service his first priority, banking stability, and then his second priority, fiscal stability, at the cost of using this window of opportunity to impact on the rising unemployment figures? If that is the case, will the Taoiseach indicate what is the State paying in addition on external borrowing rates as a result of reputational damage?
On the unemployment figures, if the Taoiseach were to repeat the answer he has already given, it would mean he has tacitly rejected any suggestion of introducing a stimulus package. While I would like to be wrong, as I read it, the Taoiseach has given priority to banking stability followed by a conservative fiscal statement in the short term. He is hoping at the end of this to have a better trading environment and then will be looking at tackling the jobs situation. If this is the case, he should state that because it is a huge political difference between us.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Following on from the issue Deputy Kenny raised, when Deputy Kenny and I asked the Taoiseach earlier this morning about the live register figures, the answer he gave us was for the seasonally adjusted figure.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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He misled the Dáil.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The answers he gave on all previous occasions he was asked this question were for the actual live register figure. The Taoiseach should take the opportunity to correct the record.
The difference is that for the seasonally adjusted figure the month-on-month increase in the number unemployed is 11,400. However, for the actual live register figure the month-on-month increase is 21,721. On the basis of the seasonally adjusted figure, the Taoiseach claimed the rate in the rise in unemployment was falling. That is not the case; it is rising. The increase was 21,721 between May and June as against 11,000 between April and May, 13,000 between March and April and 16,000 between February and March.
The Taoiseach was obviously giving a reply that was designed to make the figures look as attractive as possible from the Government's point of view. He should take the opportunity to tell the House the truth about the live register figures.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Before the Taoiseach replies, under Standing Orders there is no restriction on the amount of time the Taoiseach has to reply to questions raised. That is not the case with Other Questions but it is the case with Taoiseach's question time. It is not a question of the Chair interpreting the rules but of implementing them. It is also true that Members are not entitled to impart information when they are supposed to be asking questions. It is important I clarify the position.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Thank you for the clarification, a Cheann Comhairle.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle had to help out. As a former Taoiseach would say, it is all smokes and daggers.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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A nod is as good as a wink.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I set out for the House the information provided to me for the live register figures which were to be published at 11 o'clock. Normally, that figure is not given out until it is officially announced. I have no problem, however, in giving it at 10.30 a.m. if asked. The seasonally adjusted arrangement is a well known-----
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Will the Taoiseach tell us the truth?
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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He did not give us the right answers.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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He did not use this ploy before. This is the first time he has used it.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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He should not be cooking the books.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Ease up now. Give the Taoiseach a chance and let him finish.
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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He should give us the correct figures then.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am not making any distinction. Any extra person going on the live register is a bad day.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is bad day for the Taoiseach.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is a bad day for Ireland.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy McCormack, please.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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It is a bad day for the people unemployed.
Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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It is a bad day for the person who lost his or her job.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Members over there should stop playing politics.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is a bad day for the House if this keeps going.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy McCormack should stop playing word games. I am not suggesting matters are great when the unemployment rate is at 418,000.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The fact is the Taoiseach is massaging the figures.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As far as I am concerned, the figure is way too high. There is no argument about that. I am simply making the point that in June, as everyone knows, many people come on to the live register. A large proportion of the increase at this time is associated with seasonal factors in the education sector.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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If in doubt, keep repeating this.
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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One can only compare like with like.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Will the Taoiseach give us the real figures?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Let him finish. Question Time is almost over.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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If in doubt, keep repeating the original answer.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am not taking comfort in any of these figures, one way or the other. I have given the overall figure, and the increase since the previous month is clear. The seasonally adjusted figure, as will be outlined by the CSO, relates to the fact that June has a particular characteristic attached to it of which everyone is aware
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am not getting into word games with the Deputy.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Proceed Taoiseach.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is far too many in any event. If it were 40,000 or 100,000 fewer I would not take any comfort from it. There is no argument in it.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That is a big difference.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have told the Deputy the figure.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Let the Taoiseach finish giving his answer.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding Deputy Higgins's question-----
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is ashamed to tell the truth.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The real figure is 418,592 people unemployed.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please Deputy, let the Taoiseach finish giving his answer.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kehoe has a problem.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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This has to stop.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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This is a parliament, not a kindergarten.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach might tell the truth.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Members over there are like children. Will they let the man answer?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Let the Taoiseach finish.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Will he give us the real answer? This is a debating Chamber.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Barrett, you did not ask a question. Let the Taoiseach finish.
Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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A Cheann Comhairle, what about the Labour Party's questions?
12:00 pm
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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On Deputy Higgins's question, there are four ways to return to economic growth. We bring order to our public finances while at the same time improving competitiveness to restore jobs and growth. The fourth thing we must do is restructure our banking system.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The fourth thing we need to do is change the Government.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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This is not Puck Fair at all.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Has the Deputy got his line in now? It is about the most intelligent thing he will say today.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Do not mind that. Carry on.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We will leave that alone.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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We have heard it all before.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will respect the other Members of this House who have a point of view that is different from my approach or that of Deputy McCormack.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach's approach is not working.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We are entitled to have a discussion on what they have to say. If we fail to do one or two of the three things I have mentioned, our approach will not work. All three have to be done simultaneously. I would like to speak about the question of borrowing and the extent to which there is room for a stimulus package. The stimulus package being provided by the Government is in excess of the stimulus packages being provided by other national governments. Our capital programme provides a stimulus of 5% into the economy. If one examines the severe contraction of over 8% that took place in the first quarter of this year, one will find that 4% of it related to the construction sector and 4% related to the rest of the economy. I have been asked whether there is additional room for borrowing on the part of the Government, in order to stimulate the economy further. The answer is "No". We do not have the capacity to increase our deficits from 10.5% or 12% this year to 13% or 14% in 2010 and 15% thereafter. We do not have that room. We have to use the resources that are available to us, including significant borrowings. Of every €5 of current expenditure this year, €1 has been borrowed. In addition, this year's entire capital expenditure of €7.3 billion has been borrowed. Approximately 11% of tax revenues are being used to service the national debt, and that figure is rising. If we are to ensure that a greater proportion of the resources we are creating on the tax side is not used to pay for our rising debt, we must control our deficits. As Deputies are aware, our deficit has spiralled way beyond what was projected, as a result of the real economic impact the whole global downturn is having on us.
Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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The Government is losing it on the-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will speak about the stimulus that is being provided. It is not a question of taking a sort of monetarist approach. It is a question of providing a stimulus through the public capital programme, the investment in which is one of the highest in the world. We are continuing to invest in the programme at a specific rate of our total GNP, even at a time when we are very stressed on the financial side, in terms of where our deficit is. That is a fair assessment of the contribution the Government is making to increasing economic activity. It is in addition to the fiscal adjustments we clearly and evidently have to continue with. By the way, those adjustments were agreed by the social partners when they analysed the situation. The need to reduce deficits to below 3% between now and 2013 is a fundamental fact of life that is agreed by all. The choices we can make within our limited room for manoeuvre are matters for debate. Sometimes our discussions involve deciding whether it is a relevant factor at all. That is the constraining factor. That issue provides us with a means of financial stability in terms of our examination of the banking situation. In return for the stability we enjoy within the euro currency area, we have undertaken certain obligations in line with the rules of the Stability and Growth Pact. That is where we are at. If we can have a discussion on that in the coming months, we will do this Parliament and the people proud. At least we will all be in the real world of where it is at. Those who continue to suggest there is an easier way of doing it are prepared to forget about the figures. We have to be honest with each other and face into that. I would like that debate. There is a great deal of collective wisdom in this House to contribute to that debate. In three years time, we will have an election. We will have the election whenever we have it. Deputies on the other side would like it to take place tomorrow. I think it will take place in three years time.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Will the Government publish Mr. McCarthy's report?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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In the meantime, we have to get on with the business of the country. That is what we should proceed with. I was asked to comment on the most accurate means of measuring the number of people on the live register. The seasonally adjusted figure is the most accurate measurement. That is the situation.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, exactly. There is no argument about that.