Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Question 5: To ask the Minister for Education and Science how many of the 128 special classes in primary schools which are due to close in September 2009 he has visited; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19477/09]

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I do not visit every school or class where the level of staffing or funding has been adversely affected by the application of various policies. Not only would it be physically impossible for me to visit every school where a teaching post is being suppressed, I suggest this would not represent the best use of a Minister's time. I frequently visit schools and interact with staff and pupils and I intend to continue doing so. In supporting the principle of inclusion, I state that all children should feel part of the school community and it would be unusual for me to visit a specific special class. Rather, I meet the school community.

My Department examined the enrolment returns for a number of special classes for pupils with mild general learning disabilities and found many of them did not meet the minimum enrolment for retention. The decision was taken to apply the normal rules and suppress the classes concerned. Staffing levels in schools change frequently due to fluctuating pupil numbers. This is a normal feature of the operation of schools. Established administrative procedures are in place to facilitate adjustments to a school's staffing in such situations.

I understand that parents are anxious that their children will continue to receive an appropriate education. I reassure them that no pupil with special educational needs will be without access to support from a special needs teacher as a result of this decision. I have stated previously that I am open to listening to proposals from schools where they can demonstrate it is educationally more beneficial for the pupils involved to be in a special class. A number of schools have made submissions to my Department and my officials will be in contact with them as quickly as possible.

I reiterate that pupils with mild general learning disabilities will continue to have access to additional teaching resources to support their education. However, there is a requirement to make appropriate use of the resources available, and as in all other areas of expenditure, provision depends on the resources available to the Government.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has confirmed to the House that, before he decided to abolish the 128 classes in 119 schools affecting more than 500 young people, he did not visit any of the schools, speak to any of the parents, or meet any of the children, principals or teachers. Before the end of the school year, will he go to some of the schools that are greatly affected by his decision to abolish the classes, meet some of the people directly and hear their experiences of the detrimental effect on their school community of his arbitrary decision last February?

Second, did the Minister get a specific legal opinion within his Department or from the Attorney General before he made his decision in February, given the clear obligations under section 2 of the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act 2004, which states "the best interests of the child" are "as determined in accordance with any assessment carried out under this Act"? The Minister is leaving himself open to another legal challenge. Unless he shows some flexibility and common sense about the importance of these classes in many schools, such a challenge could well be contemplated and pursued.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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First, it is incorrect to say I did not visit special classes. The fact of the matter is that I was in such classes. It is also incorrect to say I did not have discussions with-----

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Which class?

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Excuse me. I visited a special class..

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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At one of these schools?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Deputy Hayes must allow the Minister to reply.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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That is contrary to what he told me two minutes ago.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I certainly visited a special class and discussed with teachers who are mainstreaming pupils with mild general learning disabilities the success or otherwise of that procedure. It was Department of Education and Science policy for ten years from 1985 for special classes to be in place. In 2005, the general allocation model was brought into being. I emphasise to Deputy Hayes that mainstreaming is in line with modern international practice. We take the child with mild general learning disability out of the isolation of a special class and put them in a mainstream class next to their friends. They are allowed to integrate and play with their friends and they are given support outside the class consistent with their needs. Deputy Hayes cannot have it both ways. When I asked him during the last Question Time whether he agreed with mainstreaming, his answer was that he did.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is quoting me selectively.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Yet, we see the hypocritical nature of his Private Members' motion a week ago where the Deputy wanted me to restore all of the classes. Does he believe what he said three weeks ago in this House when I put a direct question to him about his juxtaposition?

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister seems to be in big trouble on this one, largely because he is not in possession of the facts. I will ask the question again. Did he get legal advice internally within his Department or from the Attorney General? He might answer the question posed. Second, the Minister will save €7.5 million from this. Will he give a guarantee to the House that the €7.5 million he will save by axing these 128 classes will go directly into those mainstream classes to help those children he is not putting into the classes? What will he do with the €7.5 million?

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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He has not got it. It has gone to the Department of Finance.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Let us find out. I would be interested to know.

Conor Lenihan (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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George Lee might have a difficulty with the Deputy.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I call the Minister for a final reply.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I have one other question.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy should be brief. We are well over time.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister said last February that he would allow some classes to amalgamate in an area. How many classes of the 128 will he save? We are now into May and it is over three months since he made the decision. Can he give information to this House as to how many of those classes he will allow to amalgamate?

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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There are three questions. First, I did not seek legal advice. The pupil-teacher ratio for mild general learning disability has been in place for ten years and is 11:1.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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That was at that time. Why did no Minister abolish it previously?

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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For the Deputy's information, we accept a ratio of 9:1. Can the Deputy accept from me that when we considered these classes, eight of them had no mild general learning disability pupil.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The ones the Minister did not visit.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I am very concerned that other children with moderate learning disability or who are autistic get the proper supports. Perhaps it strikes the Deputy that some of those children with special needs may be in an appropriate classroom and may be in a class with a ratio of 5:1.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Every case is different.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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That is a fact of life. I am concerned that those children would get the appropriate supports.

The Deputy's third question related to amalgamation.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Which the Minister said in February he would do.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Out of the 128 classes, there have been approximately 40 appeals. I put in place an appeals system because I thought it was appropriate that the schools in question got such an opportunity. Those 40 appeals are now being heard. I thought I would have a decision by Friday of this week but five more appeals arrived in the past week and we want to ensure we process those and give them due consideration. I hope to be in a position to make decisions on all of those appeals by the middle of next week.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister does not make the decision.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Is it not extraordinary that Deputy Hayes wanted to put back all of the 128 classes although only 40 appealed?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We need to move on. We are well over time on this question.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I would hate to think what control mechanism would be in place if the Deputy was in charge of education. He and George Lee would have a real difficulty.

Conor Lenihan (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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George Lee is not teaching Deputy Hayes much about economics.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I see the Deputies are conceding the seat already.