Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Question 43: To ask the Minister for Education and Science further to Parliamentary Question No. 22 of 26 February 2009, if he will state, in respect of the 63 properties which were transferred to the State as part of the indemnity agreement towards the cost of the redress scheme, the name and address of each property; the part of the Health Service Executive that is in occupation or using 30 of the transferred properties; the location and use of the 15 properties which are being used by his Department; the name and address of the 17 properties which have been transferred to various voluntary bodies with an indication of the use to which these voluntary bodies are putting these properties; the names and functions of all of these voluntary bodies; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12241/09]

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to advise the Deputy that, with regard to the queries raised by her in regard to the properties being transferred to the State as a result of the indemnity agreement, the specific details sought are contained in a number of lists which are currently being distributed to the Deputies.

List A gives the names and addresses of the 63 properties transferring under the terms of the indemnity agreement, together with the names of the various bodies to which they are transferring. Of the 30 properties transferring to the Health Service Executive, 18 are going to the HSE southern area, six to the HSE eastern region, four to the HSE south-eastern area and two to the HSE mid-western area. The various properties are being used to provide a range of day and residential services including child care, primary care and intellectual disability services for children and adults.

List B gives the names and locations of the 15 properties transferring to my Department. All of these properties, whether in the form of school buildings or sites, are for education facilities.

List C contains the names and locations of the 17 properties transferring to voluntary bodies and local authorities. These properties are being used to provide voluntary or social housing and a range of other health and social services.

I trust that this information, together with the details contained on the lists provided, satisfies the Deputy's queries.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I thank the Minister. It probably would have been easier to get the details of the third secret of Fatima than to get this information but it is on its way and I cannot contain myself with excitement.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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From the Minister's assessment of the indemnity agreement, what is the outstanding amount which must be paid through the scheme? One action is currently before the High Court, as the Minister knows. What is the current liability the Department must pay to the victims?

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Up to 31 December 2008, the board had made awards in the case of 11,848 applicants. A further 699 cases have been withdrawn, refused or have resulted in no award being made. This leaves a balance of 2,047 cases remaining to be processed. The overall average award from the inception of the scheme is €64,892. Based on the number of applications received, the final cost of the scheme may be €1.1 billion, including legal and administrative costs, which are now running at approximately 28% of awards.

Any estimate of the final cost of the scheme at this point will, of course, be tentative as there are approximately 2,047 outstanding cases at present. As the board generally clears between 200 and 220 cases per month, it is estimated that the remaining cases will be processed by the end of 2009.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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To clarify, €1.1 billion is owed by the Minister's Department to the victims of abuse. That is the total sum at this stage——

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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It is a tentative sum.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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It is the amount coming from the Department. We could put many teachers and schools in place, as well as many special needs classes which we are suppressing.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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We could.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Has the Minister had discussions with the Attorney General about the possibility of reopening this deal with the religious orders given the fact, to which Deputy Quinn's question refers, 63 properties were included at a time when property values were exceptionally higher than they are now? Is there potential to reopen this sordid deal given the young students of this country are now picking up the bill for it?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We are well outside the scope of the question.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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There are two points to remember in this regard. The Committee of Public Accounts examined this and, at the end of the day, its view was that the best deal possible in the circumstances was obtained by the State. The Deputy conveniently forgets that the State had already decided it was going to put a redress scheme in place before there was any view that the churches should make a contribution. An agreement has been reached with the churches. That is signed, sealed and delivered and it is not my intention to seek a review of that agreement.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I accept what the Minister has said but there are other ways of re-entering negotiations with the religious orders, which are the owners of the educational property, to see if they can transfer the legal ownership of that property, maintain the schools as ongoing places of education and maintain the nature of their patronage so they will not, as their numbers decline, be tempted, as has happened in the past, to unilaterally decide to sell off those schools. I have raised this matter previously with the Minister. I accept the present deal is a bad one and was not the best available. However, there are other avenues that should be explored.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I answered this question for Deputy Quinn on the last occasion. At that time, I looked at a system that was working well, which has served us well and with which parents seem to be happy. I must ask myself, in terms of transferring these schools into State ownership, whether I am better off putting money into capital resources, building new——

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I am not talking about money. No cash will change hands, just the deeds.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We have moved well outside the scope of the question.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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We have. The Deputy is in a generous mood this afternoon. I am not sure others would match that generosity.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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It is a fair point.