Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach the cost which accrued to his Department in respect of the Moriarty tribunal during 2008; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [46602/08]

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 5: To ask the Taoiseach the procedures in place in his Department for dealing with requests for files and information by tribunals of inquiry; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [46603/08]

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 6: To ask the Taoiseach the costs accruing to date to his Department arising from the work of the Moriarty tribunal; if an estimate is available of the expected final costs; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3151/09]

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 7: To ask the Taoiseach the cost to his Department to date of the Moriarty tribunal; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7057/09]

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 8: To ask the Taoiseach the costs accruing to his Department arising from the Moriarty tribunal at latest date for which figures are available; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7462/09]

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 9: To ask the Taoiseach the action he will take arising from the Comptroller and Auditor General's Special Report No. 63 on tribunal costs in relation to those tribunals for which his Department has responsibility; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7463/09]

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 10: To ask the Taoiseach if he will confirm that as a result of a typing error the senior counsel daily refresher fee paid to lawyers at the Moriarty tribunal was set at a rate of €2,500 rather than the agreed rate of €2,250; the additional costs accruing to his Department as a result of the error; if the error occurred within his Department; if no effort was made to correct the error; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7464/09]

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 4 to 10, inclusive, together.

The total cost incurred by my Department in respect of the Moriarty tribunal since 1997 up to 31 January 2009 was €34.91 million. For 2008 the figure was €4.01 million. The recently published Comptroller and Auditor General report estimates that, including third party costs, the final cost will be in the region of €100 million, although the report emphasises that this figure is subject to many caveats and contingencies.

As regards the fees paid to counsel, fees for senior counsel at the Moriarty tribunal were set in 1997 when the tribunal was established. In early 2001, tribunal senior counsel sought an increase in their fees and negotiations about an increase went on for some time. Taking all factors into account, it was considered that an increased fee was appropriate and a rate of €2,500 per day was agreed with senior counsel and notified to them by my Department by letter in June 2002.

A few weeks afterwards, in view of the setting of the fee of €2,250 per day for senior counsel at other tribunals, it was realised that the Moriarty senior counsel rate had been agreed at a higher figure. The higher figure arose from a misunderstanding between my Department and those setting the fees in the Department of Finance and the Attorney General's office. The fee for Moriarty senior counsel was reviewed again. My Department considered that, in view of the particular circumstances of the Moriarty tribunal, the fee for its senior counsel was appropriate and should remain at €2,500 and, following advice from the Attorney General, this was sanctioned by the Department of Finance on a personal basis. Tribunal senior counsel were informed by my Department by letter in August 2002 that the rate of €2,500 was an error arising from a misunderstanding between my Department and those setting fees but that, as an exceptional measure in the circumstances, the €2,500 rate notified to them in June had been sanctioned to stand on a strictly personal basis. The fee has not been increased since. As a consequence of the overall position as regards fees at the tribunal, the cost of the present full team of the Moriarty tribunal is €645 per day less than if rates paid at other tribunals were to apply.

As regards the recent Comptroller and Auditor General report about tribunals, the report made no specific recommendations in relation to the Moriarty tribunal. The main recommendations in the report cover areas that have been considered and are being provided for, as appropriate, in the Tribunals of Inquiry Bill 2005, which is currently on Committee Stage in this House.

As regards requests for files, from time to time there have been requests to my Department for files and information from various tribunals. My Department has co-operated fully with all such requests and will continue to do so in the future.

Normally, requests from tribunals are received by the Secretary General of my Department and assigned by him to the appropriate departmental officials. Appropriate replies subsequently issue when the requests have been considered and any relevant information or files have been identified.

All inquiries to my Department from tribunals and all replies by my Department to tribunals are dealt with on a highly confidential basis as required by the tribunals themselves.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is aware that the normal practice for tribunals is to use lawyers from the Chief State Solicitor's office and the highest salary level for those is €85,000. Can the Taoiseach confirm that for the past four years the Moriarty tribunal has ignored that arrangement and engaged a solicitor from a private practice? Will he further confirm that the fees of €1,000 per day are now in excess of €1.2 million for the past four years? Will the Taoiseach tell me the reason that was justified and sanctioned by his Department when the tradition is to use persons from the Chief State Solicitor's office?

The Moriarty tribunal report was expected to be published before now but the indications are that there may be further public hearings. Does the Taoiseach agree that if lawyers are to be brought back in the event of public sittings, that should only apply for those sittings and not on an indefinite basis? There were only three sittings in 2008 — one in March and two in May. There was one in 2009, a surprise sitting, where proceedings were immediately adjourned, according to a report in The Irish Times of 30 January, to allow a date to be arranged for an organised hearing. In a quotation from that report the Minister for Finance has apparently told the Departments to which the tribunals report to contact the tribunals and tell them that once public hearings are concluded, the legal staff associated with the public hearings should no longer be paid. The Moriarty tribunal has furnished its public hearings for some time now but it appears that it still has its full complement of staff. Is that the case? As the Taoiseach is aware, senior barristers are paid up to €2,750 per day and the Moriarty tribunal may complete its hearings by the end of the year.

In respect of the matter the Taoiseach mentioned, namely, a particular approval given on a personal basis by the Department of the Finance and the Department of the Taoiseach, what were the circumstances that applied in that case? Also, on the issue the Taoiseach mentioned, the overpayment to the senior counsel where he is being paid a daily refresher of €2,500 instead of €2,250 due to a typing error in the Department of the Taoiseach in 2002, what arrangements have been made to recover that payment? The total payments added up to more than €1 million. Were arrangements made to recover that?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There are not arrangements made to recover it as it is not necessary. As I said, the fee was agreed in June 2002 and the Attorney General's advice on the matter concluded that it would be inappropriate to withdraw the higher rate of fee which had been formally notified. He advised that the tribunal lawyers should be notified that the €2,500 rate had been notified in error but that in all the circumstances, approval was given to its payment. My Department notified the tribunal senior counsel by letter in August 2002 that the rate of €2,500 was an error arising from a misunderstanding between my Department and those setting fees but that, as an exceptional measure in the circumstances, the €2,500 rate notified to them in June had been sanctioned to stand on a strictly personal basis.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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It was largesse.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It was left at the higher rate.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. That was the agreed fee based on that notification and advice from the Attorney General.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Can we have the figure of the extra payments made to the person concerned as a result of the typing error?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is not down to a typing error. I explained in my reply that there was a misunderstanding between the Department of the Taoiseach and the tribunal——

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Did it cost €1 million?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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——in stating the fee was to be €2,500 rather than €2,250. When this came to the attention of the Department, it sought the advice of the Attorney General and based the decision on the need for people to be involved in what is regarded as the highly complex work of the Moriarty tribunal.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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They went for the big sum.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It was decided that a rate of €2,500 per day for that work was appropriate in the circumstances, on a personal basis.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The figure is more than €1 million.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No. The Comptroller and Auditor General made no recommendation is his report for a requirement for repayment because the fee was agreed.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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There should be.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There was no overpayment on the basis that it was an agreed fee. I explained the circumstances, in an honest way, as to how the situation arose and the Attorney General's advice was sought.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Did the person involved not offer to give the money back?

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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If the fee was agreed, why did the Department need the advice of the Attorney General?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I explained that in August 2002 it was an agreed fee. The Comptroller and Auditor General has not made a recommendation on the matter because he accepts it was an agreed fee. I want to make a substantive point on the costs of these matters. The Moriarty tribunal——

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The error in overpayment has cost €1 million.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Kenny is asking what is the context.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The purpose of these questions is not to engage in argument but simply to impart the information available on the file. That is what I am doing.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Let the Taoiseach finish.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am making the point that this error cost €1 million.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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It is not very satisfactory.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Let the Taoiseach finish.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is the way to run a business.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The legal team of the Moriarty tribunal consists of three senior counsel, two junior counsel, one legal researcher and one solicitor. It is a significantly smaller legal team than, for example, the Mahon tribunal, which has a legal team comprising 21 people, whereas the Moriarty tribunal has seven.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Does the Taoiseach believe they are paid too much?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Never mind that now. Let the Taoiseach finish.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The cost of the Moriarty tribunal legal team is €645 less than the equivalent cost of the Mahon tribunal.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Why is that?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is due to the fact that when one takes into account the fee structure available to the tribunal, in terms of senior and junior counsel and legal assistants, it works out at €645 less. That point should be made. The fees are agreed by the Department of Finance with legal counsel, on the advice of the Attorney General. Those are the rates which are payable and which have been agreed.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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That was in the good times. What about the bad times? What are the fees in bad times?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We have very little time left so there should be no interruptions if at all possible.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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We are trying to help.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Regarding this error in the payment of fees to two senior counsel, can the Taoiseach clarify when the agreement was made between his Department and the tribunal on the fee of €2,500 per day? When did it come to his Department's attention that it should, in fact, have been €2,250 per day? What is the normal situation when an overpayment is made? If, for example, a civil servant receives on overpayment in their salary, is it not recouped? If a social welfare recipient receives an overpayment of social welfare and an error is made by the Department, is the money recouped?

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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The same applies to ourselves.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Why is the money in this particular case not recouped?

What exactly is going on in the Moriarty tribunal? There has been no report. We have heard there may or may not be additional public hearings. Apparently there is a draft report somewhere. When, and by what means, is it going to come to an end and publish a report?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Moriarty tribunal was set up in 1997. In early 2001, tribunal senior counsel sought a substantial increase in their fees and negotiations went on for some time, as I outlined in my initial reply. It was considered an increased fee was appropriate and, in due course, that was agreed. A rate of €2,500 per day was agreed with senior counsel and notified to them by the Department of the Taoiseach by letter in June 2002. The negotiations to decide whether to give an increased fee went on for 18 months.

A number of weeks later, in view of the setting of a fee of €2,250 per day for senior counsel at other tribunals, it was realised the Moriarty senior counsel rate had been agreed at a higher figure. It was an agreed figure. It was not the case that a figure was agreed and then overpayments were made. The figure of €2,500 was an agreed figure and not designated by the Comptroller and Auditor General as an overpayment. He made no recommendation in his annual report on the need, or, in his opinion, the necessity for changing that arrangement because he accepts the fee of €2,500 was agreed.

When, a number of weeks later, the fee of €2,250 per day for senior counsel in other tribunals was set, it was realised the rate set for Moriarty senior counsel had been agreed at a higher figure. The higher figure arose from a misunderstanding between my Department and those setting the fees. There was an understanding in my Department that the fee was to be €2,500 per day and an understanding from those who set the fees that it was to be €2,250 per day. My Department had notified senior counsel that the agreed rate was €2,500 per day.

In view of the particular circumstances which pertained in the Moriarty tribunal, which is doing specialised and complex work, it was considered that the fee for its senior counsel was appropriate and should remain at €2,500 per day. This decision was made following the advice of the Attorney General and was sanctioned by the Department of Finance. The issue was examined again in August when it came up again and people noted the fee was €2,250 per day in the Mahon tribunal and €2,500 per day in the Moriarty tribunal.

The issue was re-examined and the figure of €2,500 per day was confirmed as the set fee for the Moriarty tribunal in the circumstances.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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What about looking at it again?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the cost of the Moriarty tribunal and the way it operates, it has a different modus operandi from other tribunals as it keeps the need for witnesses to appear and public hearings, and the associated costs, to a minimum. It is doing things quite differently under its sole member. It has been quite effective and has been doing detailed and complex work to get to the bottom of matters for many years. It is to the credit of the sole member that he has an arrangement in place which is mindful of the fact that he wants to conduct those proceedings as cost effectively as possible. The size of his team compares very favourably with the size of other teams in other tribunals.

Part of the background to the issue is also the importance of trying to keep the same personnel in place, given the amount of work which had been done, rather than the possibility of bringing in new personnel should people leave on the basis that the fee had not been examined since 1997. All of those considerations came into play. My Department has been very open, honest and straightforward in explaining the miscommunication which took place between those who set the fee and the circumstances in which information on it was conveyed to the Moriarty tribunal. It has stood over the fact that it was an agreed fee and confirmed that when it saw a discrepancy between the Moriarty tribunal and other tribunals, it sought the advice of the Attorney General. In all circumstances, he gave the advice he did and that gives a full explanation of the situation.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Moriarty tribunal is now in its 12th year. Can the Taoiseach be more definite on whether further sittings will take place? Does he accept there is real concern at the continued time expended on this tribunal and the overall cost of its sittings?

With regard to costs, I understand Mr. Denis O'Brien took two judicial reviews, which went all the way to the Supreme Court, both of which were unsuccessful and, as a result, he owes the tribunal in excess of €610,000 plus interest. Will the Taoiseach indicate whether those moneys have been recovered or whether they are being proactively pursued if they have not yet been paid? What position has he taken on the recommendations of the Comptroller and Auditor General on matters directly pertaining to this and other tribunals regarding the curtailment of costs? Has he given particular attention to the recommendations regarding fees involved in engaging counsel and other senior legal opinion?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As I stated in my original remarks, many of the Comptroller and Auditor General's recommendations have been incorporated into the Tribunals of Inquiry Bill 2005, Committee Stage of which is before the House. Many of the recommendations will be made operational.

With regard to the tribunal's work, I understand from the tribunal that further public sittings will commence at the end of the March, which the sole member anticipates is likely to be completed by the end of April or the beginning of May. On completion of those sittings, the sole member hopes to produce his report within a period of some months. I understand from the sole member that when public sittings are conclusively completed, the role of his legal team is likely to diminish.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What about my question on the outstanding sum due from Mr. O'Brien for his judicial reviews?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am sure the sole member is dealing with the matter.