Dáil debates
Wednesday, 4 March 2009
Ceisteanna — Questions
11:00 am
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach the arrangements in place in his Department for providing assistance to certain independent Members of Dáil Éireann; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [46601/08]
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach the procedures in place within his Department for providing assistance to certain independent Members of Dáil Éireann; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3150/09]
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach the estimated cost of arrangements in his Department to provide assistance to Government supporting independent Deputies; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7056/09]
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, together.
There are political agreements with individual Independent Deputies which my predecessor entered into as Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party. I have confirmed to those Deputies concerned that I will continue to implement those agreements. The House is aware such arrangements have existed for more than 11 years. The House is also aware of the decision taken by Deputy McGrath to withdraw from his agreement.
The agreements are confidential but are, as always, based on the programme for Government which incorporates the national development plan, approved Government programmes and annual Estimates for capital and current expenditure. I have continued the practice whereby a staff member in my office assists the Government Chief Whip's office in its work in liasing with these Deputies. This official meets these Deputies on a regular basis and arranges to keep them briefed on issues as they arise. The official dealing with the Deputies is an assistant principal and he assists the Chief Whip in this matter.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Why is it necessary to have public servants dealing with particular Independent Deputies? Several of these Deputies have said they have programmes worked out, written agreements or business with the Government. We have never seen these but I assume that just as the national development programme was predicated on a 4% growth increase in the economy these programmes, whatever they are, or however valid or invalid they may be, will have changed also in light of the current financial circumstances.
Has the public servant who deals with these Independent Deputies looked at the programme that was drafted with the Government? Has this changed in the light of changed economic circumstances? Is there any relevance in wasting public time and public money dealing with programmes that have changed utterly, as everything else has changed? Will the Taoiseach comment, from that perspective?
Are these facilities now being extended to the latest acquisition in the Independent ranks, Deputy Behan? Will somebody from the Government Whip's office or a public servant, deal with his new status?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I do not think so. He is semi-detached.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There are no arrangements with Deputy Joe Behan. Deputy Kenny should not make a mountain out of a molehill. There are political agreements and on that basis they are confidential. They are obviously based on the programme for Government. Part of that programme sets out that all programmes and policies are predicated on trying to maintain order in our public finances in order that they are sustainable and that we may be able to finance them on an ongoing basis.
All these Deputies are elected Members of this House. They are entitled, if they wish, to offer support to the Government of the day and are entitled also, if they wish, to come to their own arrangements with that Government. Obviously, the commitments entered into are predicated in the same way as the commitments the Government itself enters into, namely, on the basis of available resources and priorities we can establish and work on. Clearly not every area of policy can be covered for them, no more than for the Government.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I respect the fact they are elected to the House and the people from their respective constituencies are entitled to make their choices; that is absolutely understood. However, the Taoiseach has a majority which includes the Fianna Fáil Party, the Minister for Health and Children and the Green Party, so he does not need to backed up by having public moneys extended to Independent Deputies. The national development programme contains 500 different projects from Malin down to Cork and from Donegal to Wexford and somewhere in between are bits and pieces for these Independent Deputies. The House has never seen these. The national development programme will not be implemented in the way it was written; it cannot be because that is no longer a realistic prospect. All I am asking the Taoiseach is whether these secret documents have been examined by the person from the Whip's office or is it some Fatima-like business that we can never find out whether these fit into the national development programme, whether they are going to be reprioritised outside the national development programme or are these Independent Deputies entitled to go back to their constituents and say, "I have a secret deal here, I cannot tell you about it but you will know when it happens"? This is ridiculous.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am amused at the Deputy's fixation with the political arrangements which others have with the Government. It is their entitlement to support the Government if they wish. The fact they are not interested in supporting the Deputy's party——
Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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This is taxpayers' money.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The fact they are not interested in supporting the Deputy's party is his problem and not my problem. From my point of view I welcome as much support——
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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A few of them are getting sense.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, lads, I welcome as much support——
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Finian McGrath has the same right to ask questions as anyone else.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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——as possible in this House on any vote——
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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——and there are occasions when the Opposition votes for something and other occasions when it does not and that is the way it works. The bottom line is——
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach has a majority and a whip on his own crowd.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The position is very simple; there are people who support this Government on the basis of understandings they have entered into. We work through that process and that programme as best we can with those Deputies. We are all practising politicians and we all know that in the circumstances in which we find ourselves, it will not be possible to implement every aspect of policy but priorities can be established and if we all act in good faith, progress can be made as it has been. The fact that at the end of the day those Independent Deputies will be able to show a bit more than Deputy Kenny can show in the course of this Dáil, is his problem.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This party supported the guarantee for the banks under the conditions which we made clear, namely that the banking system is very necessary in order to keep business and commerce flowing through the country and we made no bones about that. Is the Taoiseach saying now that because a person happens to be an Independent Deputy or removes himself or herself to the Independent rank, that person can get more from the Government than groups that support the Government in the national interest?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He is saying that. He is saying that because these people up in these august benches——
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is what the Deputy is saying; I am not saying that at all.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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——support the Government they have a special deal with somebody from the Whip's office. I am not looking for anything special from the Taoiseach, I am merely making the point that the Fine Gael Party supported the bank guarantee scheme on the basis of keeping commerce and business flowing throughout the country——
Finian McGrathEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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——but the Taoiseach has different standards. Just because these people support him occasionally, he has a secret deal that is locked away in some vault and is examined occasionally by the person from the Whip's office. Nobody knows anything about this, about its cost or whatever else but that public official is wasting time and money dealing with secret documents about a deal that some people in this House have. This House is supposed to be about openness and transparency. Why does the Taoiseach not tell the House what is in these deals and satisfy our fixations about the secret negotiations that Deputy Finian McGrath and Deputy Healy-Rae have had with the Government? It is not going to change the world, believe you me.
P J SheehanBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It will change a lot more than what Deputy Kenny will be able to change from those benches, I can assure him, on the basis that they support the Government.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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They have been in a position——
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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What about Deputy Finian McGrath's €250 million?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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——to see improvements in those areas which they sought and they will continue to make representations regardless of whether they still support the Government.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What about the man beside the Taoiseach, the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe and the special needs classes?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Being an open-minded Deputy, I will listen attentively to any proposal on the basis of its intrinsic merit. In fact, I have helped out a few of Deputy Kenny's own party from time to time——
Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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It is a pity the Taoiseach did not listen in the past couple of years.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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——when representations were received. I am very open to helping others.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The question from this side of the House is not who chooses to support the Government on any particular vote; it is the price to be paid by the taxpayer for that vote. That is the issue we are trying to get to the heart of. The Minister for Finance last night invited the Opposition parties to open the books and look at them, to make decisions for the economic well-being and future of our country. Would it not be in the same spirit that the commitments made to the Independent Deputies, which obviously have a cost because some of them are claiming tens of millions, would not be part of that scrutiny? I ask the Taoiseach specifically whether the individual commitments which will cost the taxpayer money, made to the Independents for their vote, will be part of the overview, since he and the Minister for Finance have said everything is on the table.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As I made clear in a previous response, there are conditions attaching to political agreements with Independents just as there are for the programme for Government itself. All commitments are predicated on the availability of resources, both those the Government has prioritised——
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Are we allowed to know what they are when we are overviewing everything?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is not in the same spirit that this will happen. The idea that those would be central to solving the scale of the problem is an irrelevance.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Is everything on the table or not?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am trying to answer the Deputy's question. What is not on the table is the ability of the Opposition to renegotiate agreements which Independents have entered into with the Government. Were the Deputy in my position and I in his, would he suggest that this was a tenable proposition? Absolutely not. Let us get real here.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Taoiseach is telling the Dáil that in the current economic crisis, everything, vaccine for children, special needs assistants, everything is on the table, but not the deal that his Government has worked out with Independent Deputies to support this Government. Not only is this not on the table, we are not even to know what it is. Is that what the Taoiseach is telling the House?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No, that is not what the Taoiseach is telling the House, as the Deputy well knows. The Taoiseach has made it clear what the position is with regard to those agreements, the same as agreements with other parties in our own Government. As a former Minister who also negotiated with me on an agreement, the Deputy will know that all commitments are predicated on the financial provisions which confirm that resources have to be available——
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Taoiseach is deliberately misleading the Dáil.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am not. Deputies who support the Government are entitled to continue to pursue the priorities they have identified with the Government in good faith and the Government is obliged, in good faith, reciprocally, to progress those as best it can in the context of the overall framework we are trying to work to. That is simply a political arrangement, a political understanding that permeates all agreements, whether it be at local council level about positions during the tenure of office of a particular administration or indeed in the national Parliament. These are the normal arrangements that people obtain in order to support a Government. If the Deputy is in the position at any time in the future, where his party requires some support from Independents, he will undertake that legitimate exercise as well and it will be an exercise in accountability because at the end of the day, the people will make their minds up as to what they believe is the right thing to do in the future.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Taoiseach is deliberately avoiding the core issue which is that in any negotiation for a programme for Government, in any bilateral agreement between parties to form a Government, the agreement is published and the people know and can make a judgment on it. The problem with the arrangements that the Government has with the Independents is that they are secret. The Taoiseach says they are not to be disclosed yet there is a cost involvement, a cost which many of them are declaring at local level to be tens of millions. In the current climate, does the Taoiseach accept that it is unacceptable to have secret agreements that will cost God knows how much money to the taxpayer, that cannot be part of the overall scrutiny known to the people? I am simply asking if those deals should be published in the interests of transparency.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No, they do not require publication now. Those agreements were reached with the individuals concerned on the basis of and subject to the conditions I have outlined. Therefore, of course the taxpayers' interests are kept in mind by the Government in respect of delivering on all priorities, whether those mentioned in the programme for Government between parties or indeed any arrangements entered into with individual Deputies, the requirements for which are subject to the same criteria as applies to anyone else.
The Deputy refers to the fact that Deputies in their constituencies speak about the outcomes they are having. Any Deputy who supports developments in his or her constituency, whether in Government or in Opposition, is never too slow, no more than the Deputy, to demonstrate the influence he or she would claim to have had as regards making representations. That is entirely legitimate and above board, and we should not expect anything different from anyone else.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Taoiseach not accept that there is a fundamental difference between a negotiated programme for Government with other parties and the arrangements that are in place with Independent Deputies? The programme for Government is an open transparent document that the public and all parties have the opportunity to peruse, address and criticise as required. The other arrangement is something that is under the counter and nobody has the opportunity to shed any light on it.
I am sure the Taoiseach is aware that there is no argument against Independent Deputies supporting and being part of the formulation of a programme for Government. A critical point, however, will he not accept, is that this is above board, on top of the table and is open and transparent for all to see? Will he not accept, too, that there is a real question here as regards the appropriateness of such arrangements, where the advantage is understood to be cast in the direction of specific constituencies as against the wider interest, which a programme for Government is intended to address, not only on a regional or local but on a national basis? The absence of detail affords these Independent Deputies the opportunity to put their flag on the pole in regard to all matters pertaining to development, infrastructural progress, etc., within their respective constituencies.
I noted in the course of Deputy Kenny's opening remarks the Ceann Comhairle's clear understanding of all that was being addressed in the course of these questions, particularly because of the situation pertaining to an Independent Deputy within his constituency. Can the Taoiseach not accept that the correct procedure for the future is that these matters are part of a negotiated programme for Government, to be conducted in the context of something that will be published and that he will undertake to put an end to what is ultimately the reduction of the democratic process to a lottery system on the basis that an Independent Deputy will have the chance to pursue particular interests and causes, if the figures turn up to his or her advantage?
I am asking the Taoiseach whether he accepts that this is a good time to put down a marker for best practice with regard to appropriately addressing these matters into the future, and to be specific. I know from what Deputy Finian McGrath, beside me, has indicated in the past that he was not parochial in all the matters he sought in terms of his specific engagement with the emerging Government in 2007.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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This is a very long question.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Regarding one of the matters he has indicated, I have asked the Taoiseach previously, as a result of Deputy McGrath's disengagement from support for Government whether there were downsides with regard to any of the particular areas that he keenly addressed in the course of his negotiations with Government. I am concerned with one in particular, namely, the proposed national centre for cystic fibrosis at St. Vincent's Hospital, where 34 isolation bed units were committed to and only nine have been delivered.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Question Time cannot be utilised to impart information. The purpose of Question Time is to seek information. That is the name of the game.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Can the Taoiseach say with absolute certainty that the additional 25 isolation beds in the national centre for cystic fibrosis at that hospital which is of concern to everyone, will indeed proceed and be delivered by this Government?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Other Members are offering as well. There are a number of questions there for the Taoiseach.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is not just a number of questions, a number of tomes were brought forward by Deputy Ó Caoláin. I want, first, to thank him for advising us how to negotiate a programme for Government. If he does not mind, we shall take our own advice in that regard.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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This is the old game, again.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Why does the Taoiseach not answer the question?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am answering the question. The Deputy asked me a question.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I asked the Taoiseach a number of questions.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Let me answer the question.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The first question Deputy Ó Caoláin asked was why we did not, as part of our overall negotiation programme, negotiate with the Independents when we were agreeing our programme for Government. With all due respect, my answer to him is that we shall decide how to negotiate our programme for Government. The second point is that we decided to negotiate a programme for Government with the parties in Government. My predecessor then spoke to those Deputies who had indicated an interest in discussing with him the possibility of their providing support to the Government on the basis of certain arrangements or agreements between him and those Dáil Members. This is how that support was achieved——
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach did not have to accept those arrangements.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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On the change of Administration, when I became Taoiseach, having been Minister for Finance, I indicated I would continue to implement those arrangements with Deputies on the basis of their continuing support, which was the understanding they had on entering into the agreement in the first place.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As regards south Kerry, without referring to the Ceann Comhairle, the people there have indicated their level of support for Fianna Fáil candidates and our party in the last election——
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is diminishing at the moment.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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——and made it very clear that they associated much of the progress and development with our party, in Government——
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Including the hospital in Kenmare.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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—— while retaining confidence in the Independent Deputy concerned. I am glad to see all of them back in the House. That was the outcome there and the people made a decision in relation to that matter.
The next question asked by the Deputy was about why I was not being transparent, but I am being transparent with him. The confidentiality of the agreements will be respected. The arrangements are conditionally based on the same criteria that apply to the implementation of any other programme for Government or any part thereof.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I understand the Deputy's curiosity. I know he would, perhaps, like to see a leather bound copy, but one is not available.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Just to get the matter absolutely correct, I am not at all happy with the Taoiseach's proposal to continue the current arrangement — and that will come as no surprise to him.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No, I am nor surprised.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I also note with regret his failure to accept——
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It becomes the Deputy.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach should at least allow me to respond
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Let us move on with Question Time.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I note with regret his failure to accept the very reasoned arguments presented by Deputy Howlin and myself to the effect that there is a fundamental difference between the arrangement arising out of the engagement with political parties in the formulation of a programme for Government and the secret under the desk agreements made with Independent Deputies. This is wrong and will the Taoiseach not accept that this distorts the democratic process?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It most certainly does. However, to focus in on what the Taoiseach did not answer, in regard to the question I posed on a most important issue, the national centre for cystic fibrosis at St. Vincent's Hospital, many people in every constituency in the country are anxiously awaiting the roll-out of the full commitment to 34 isolation beds, and we have only seen nine so far.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is a matter for the Minister for Health and Children.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Taoiseach prepared to commit this morning to the complete roll-out of that centre, and within what timeframe?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As the Ceann Comhairle has indicated, that is outside the remit of this question. However, as a former Minister for Health, I am very proud of my association with the Cystic Fibrosis Association of Ireland. I was glad to have been associated with ensuring that a team was trained in Newcastle-upon-Tyne at the time to ensure that a lung and heart transplant team could, inter alia, be made available in this country for cystic fibrosis sufferers. That procedure is available here now as a result of the priority I was in a position to afford it then, and working on the work of predecessors who were trying to move along that project at the time. I recall also attending an annual meeting of Cystic Fibrosis Association of Ireland in Kilkenny when I was Minister at which I had a long discussion with its representatives on those issues and was in a position to progress them.
On the specific matter regarding a national centre, I am glad to note that the beginning has happened in terms of nine beds being available. I cannot give an indication to the Deputy this morning what further progress can be made in that area but the availability of resources is now critical, as our previous discussion during Leaders' Questions confirmed. A question to the Minister for Health and Children on the up to date position would be the best way of imparting accurate and up to date information on that question.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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In his reply to my colleague, Deputy Howlin, the Taoiseach suggested that, for example, if something was being announced in one's constituency we could all claim to have contributed in some way to it being announced but I put it to him that it is bad for the body politic to have those secret agreements. If the Taoiseach's colleague the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, were to announce the building of a school in south Kerry, for example, Deputy Healy-Rae could produce his secret document and say "I got this. It is in my secret document".
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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That would give him an advantage over everybody else in south Kerry in terms of taking credit for that announcement.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is a grave injustice to the Deputy.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, is only announcing cutbacks, not schools.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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I suggest this third secret of Fatima is causing damage to the body politic and the Taoiseach might consider publishing it.
Christy O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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The official concerned who is dealing with the Independents who support the Government is now down from four to two, presumably, in terms of his or her workload.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is diminishing by the day.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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What is the allocation of time that official uses with the Independents and has it been reduced by half recently? Also, is it part of the agreement that the special research allowance the Independents have would not be audited?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy can take up the question of the allowances with the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. That is not an issue with which I deal. On the question of allocation of time, there is a contact person in my Department for them to deal with if they wish to deal with that person directly, in addition to the Chief Whip.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is an arrangement that does not require an allocation of time motion or anything else. It is a simple enough sort of arrangement.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Does Jackie have that number?
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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Does that person have other specific duties and has the Taoiseach given any indication to that person as to the amount of time he or she should spend on dealing with the issues raised by the Independents?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Only whatever time is necessary consistent with dealing with these representations, as they would be dealt with for the Deputy or anybody else.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The allowance paid to the Independents in lieu of a party leader's allowance, for which they do not have to account, is a matter for the Minister for Finance, not the commission. Is that not correct?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is a point of information.