Dáil debates
Wednesday, 11 February 2009
Order of Business
11:00 am
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is proposed to take No. 1, Charities Bill 2007 — amendments from the Seanad; No. 19, Legal Services Ombudsman Bill 2008 — Order for Report, Report and Final Stages; and No. 18, Employment Law Compliance Bill 2008 — Second Stage (resumed). Private Members' business shall be No. 53, motion re hospital services (resumed), to conclude at 8.30 p.m. tonight, if not previously concluded.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are no proposals to put to the House.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose that we suspend the business of the House for two hours.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is that agreed, a Cheann Comhairle?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Would Deputy Kenny like to explain that to us?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am concerned about social solidarity and good faith. On 29 September, the members of the Government met regarding the bank guarantee scheme and 30 September was the year end date for Anglo Irish Bank. In January, we dealt with the nationalisation of Anglo Irish bank. An issue of considerable importance in that Bill was the Government's knowledge that €7 billion had been passed from Irish Life & Permanent to Anglo Irish Bank. That was an important piece of information of which the Dáil should have been aware in the context of its deliberations on that Bill because, through nationalisation, the country is being asked to take an exposure of the order of tens of billions of euro in potentially bad debts. While I am loath to accuse anybody of misleading the House, obviously the Government, Taoiseach and Minister for Finance were aware of this. We should have a two-hour debate.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot get into that now.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is an important issue.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are no proposals before the House today.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny must make that case to the Government.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am making it to the Government through you, Sir. You constantly remind me to talk to you. I propose that at the close of normal business we have 90 minutes of discussion on this matter to clear up any misconceptions. The Government was aware of this transfer of €7 billion. I am concerned about the misrepresentation of the use of that money as a loan or as a deposit and the Taoiseach should come into the House——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny could ask during Leaders' Questions.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It should be dealt with now.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should explain to the House the circumstances surrounding this in so far as we know them so everybody can have social solidarity, take what we hear from the Government in good faith and not be misled, as it appears we have been.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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It is a resigning matter almost.
Liz McManusJohn O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are at least two requests for a private notice question on this matter and they are matters for the Chair to determine in due course before 2.30 p.m. today. I cannot see why we will invoke a new procedure when there are no proposals on the Order of Business.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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They do not know the answers to the questions.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I can only apply Standing Orders.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle is independent of any Member of the House. We do not know what decision he will make on the private notice questions. I propose a 90-minute debate at the end of business so the Taoiseach can give an explanation to the House of the circumstances surrounding——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy has made his point.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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——the transfer of €7 billion to Anglo Irish Bank, which is the same amount the Government proposes to take from the taxpayer to fund the recapitalisation programme.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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There is no proposal before the House.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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If the Government was aware of that, people should resign.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy asked about that this morning.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I support Deputy Kenny's request. I appreciate what the Ceann Comhairle said about the normal procedures that apply in the House. However, the Taoiseach's response to my question earlier this morning was extraordinary. The Taoiseach acknowledged that he and the Government knew about the €7 billion transfer of money or loan — call it what one wants — to Anglo Irish Bank, the effect of which was to falsify the real position of that bank. The Government knew about that before it introduced legislation in the House asking us to nationalise that bank and take responsibility for it.
Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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That is correct. The Government did not tell us.
12:00 pm
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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We were not told. The Government introduced legislation on an entirely false premise. It had very substantial information which affected the status of Anglo Irish Bank and what we took on when we nationalised it, and the Government did not inform us about it. It is not a small matter. The consequences of all this for the public finances, the country, the taxpayer, jobs, business and our economy are enormous. I support Deputy Kenny's request that the basis on which the Bill to nationalise the bank was introduced in the House be debated here. The information provided to the House was certainly false. At the very least, the Government held back information it should have provided to us.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It will require a closer examination of the text of what was said on those days to establish formally whether misleading of the House took place.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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On 20 January I asked specifically of the Minister for Finance if he had other information he was not sharing with the Deputies on the Opposition benches, whom he was asking to buy a pig in a poke. He was asking us to sign up to the expenditure of public moneys and the exposure of the public finances to what I described as potentially a financial cesspit. That is exactly as it has proven to be. If the Minister had not proceeded as he did, after yesterday's exposure about Irish Life & Permanent the ass would have fallen out of Anglo Irish Bank and it would not be worth a button on the Stock Exchange this morning. That is a fact. It would be over and done with. Many people watching the situation would say today "Good riddance". There are strong opinions on this matter. The Minister for Finance was unable to give that assurance. He looked ashen-faced across the House in response to that and other questions posed. He clearly had critical information, and he had either personally decided to withhold it or had been gagged and prevented from sharing it with other Members of the House.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy has made his point.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That constituted absolute misleading of the Members of this House who were facing a critical proposition — one, thankfully, that a significant body of us had the wit and sense not to sign up to.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Come on now. I must ask the Taoiseach to respond.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is imperative that the Minister and the Taoiseach come before the House to face the real questions about Anglo Irish Bank - what they knew, what they know now, and what they really propose to do about those who betrayed the loyalty and trust that was put in them and the responsibility that was given to them in their positions at the helm of that bank and other financial institutions. This is not only about Anglo Irish Bank. It is about Irish Nationwide and Mr. FitzPatrick. It is about Irish Life & Permanent-----
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy has made his point. I must call the Taoiseach now.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----and these irregular transactions. The big questions are why the Financial Regulator was unable to come clean on these matters, and what was the extent of his knowledge, and that of his office, about these matters.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is important that we deal with these issues in a sensible and moderate fashion.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Please. These are serious matters that we need to address.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Government intends to conduct a meeting today with regard to recapitalisation of two of the main institutions. This would involve a debate in the House tomorrow for that purpose. All these matters can be discussed and clarified without any problem whatever. The point that was being made during Leaders' Questions was that there were governance issues arising with regard to Anglo Irish Bank and this was sapping market confidence. On my official trip to Japan I indicated through conversations I had that it was clear that nationalisation of the bank was required and that this was in the public interest. That was the decision that was taken in the public interest. There was no attempt by anybody to mislead or do anything untoward whatsoever, as far as we are concerned, with regard to these matters. The debate in the House on foot of the decision to be taken by Government later will be the best way of clarifying this.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am moving on.
John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, the Ceann Comhairle has received two Private Notice Questions and there is nothing under Standing Orders to prevent him from making a decision on them now.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have until 2.30 p.m. to make that decision.
John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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There is nothing in Standing Orders which prevents the Ceann Comhairle from making that decision now.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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And there is nothing in Standing Orders which requires me to make it now either. I will exercise my independent discretion.
John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle could sort this out right now and make a decision with regard to the debate, so why not do so?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Deputy for his assistance in that respect.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Does the Taoiseach agree that it is now urgent that this House establish an all-party commission on banking which would investigate recent events and make recommendations on the future conduct of banking in Ireland, in the interest of the country's reputation?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not in order, unless the Taoiseach wants to respond.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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What is in the interest of the country's reputation is that we proceed with our recapitalisation in order to stabilise the banking system, and for the debate to take place in this House on all aspects of the matter. It is open to anyone in the House to raise any issue.
For the purpose of clarification, I want to make the point again that general governance issues were arising with regard to Anglo Irish Bank which brought about a situation in which the nationalisation of the bank was imperative. There was no detail available to me at that time about specific matters. What we were talking about was governance issues which were sapping market confidence. We needed to deal with that issue and that was the basis upon which we made those decisions.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Are there not a whole——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot go into this now, Deputy Rabbitte. There is a debate tomorrow. The Taoiseach has already indicated that.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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There are a whole number of different issues causing widespread concern among the public. If this House has a role, surely it ought to be examining the implications of what has come into the public domain in recent months——
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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——and not just yesterday. This House ought to put a number of Deputies who know something about banking on a commission which would investigate these issues and make recommendations for the future. We will end up like Reykjavik if we allow things to proceed——
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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——as they are proceeding at the moment.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I cannot allow this to continue. I must move on.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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There are an awful lot of people out there——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is not in order.
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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We are part of the eurozone. The Deputy should not forget that.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Yes, I will remember that. We have been responsible on this side of the House, but if the Minister were to look at the e-mails and other representations we are getting——
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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——he would see the concerns that are abroad about people's jobs and homes.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I cannot go into this now.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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We need a banking system that works. This House showed before, in the DIRT inquiry, that it has the capacity to examine these issues and make recommendations about future conduct. I ask the Taoiseach to consider that seriously. I cannot see any downside to it. The people expect no less of us.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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I give way to Deputy Gilmore.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The issue we are pursuing with the Taoiseach is not a small matter. It is clear from the replies we got during Leaders' Questions that the Government knew about the €7 billion loan.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Gilmore, I cannot wander off into this on the Order of Business.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle should allow a debate.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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A debate is to take place tomorrow.
John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle could sort this out immediately.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are at least two Private Notice Questions tabled for today——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are at least two questions, and that decision will be made prior to 2.30 p.m. As always, I will act impartially, independently and in the best interests of the House.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I cannot allow a debate on this now.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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A Cheann Comhairle, it is a serious matter.
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The whole country is talking about it.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputies must understand that. I cannot allow a debate on this now.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I am not asking for a debate on it now, but I am asking for a debate during the day. The issue at stake here is that the Government came in and asked the House to pass a Bill nationalising a bank whose accounts had been effectively falsified by the loans it got from other institutions. The Government knew that at the time it brought in the legislation.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach has already responded on this issue.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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That is not a small matter.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Does the Deputy have anything to add to what he has said already on this matter?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach is now telling us that there were issues of general governance. This is not an issue of general governance.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are procedures and rules governing the House which I have to implement.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It is very specific. We were asked to nationalise a bank while the Government knew that the real financial position of that bank was not as had been publicly stated.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Deputy to resume his seat because I am going to proceed now.
John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle should make a ruling now. He is protecting them.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am protecting nobody. The Deputy must withdraw that remark.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is it a point of order?
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It is, Sir. It is my understanding and experience in this House over many years that when Members either intentionally or by accident say something that misleads the House, they come into the House and explain themselves. This morning, on this particular issue, the Taoiseach has said two things which are mutually contradictory.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I cannot go into that now.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Ceann Comhairle to bear with me for a moment. He said with regard to the nationalisation of Anglo Irish Bank that there were general governance issues——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must move on.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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——but he did not know what they were.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are two Private Notice Questions tabled, one from the Deputy's own finance spokesperson, which will be dealt with in due course.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Yet he told us less than an hour ago that he knew at the time of the nationalisation that Irish Life & Permanent——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is out of order.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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——had transferred €7 billion to Anglo Irish Bank. One of those statements is true; both cannot be.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Stagg is next. Deputy Shatter must resume his seat.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It is my view that this House was misled when the nationalisation Bill came before it——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Chair is on its feet so the Deputy must resume his seat.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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——because the Taoiseach was privy to information that Members of this House should have been given.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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If the Deputy does not resume his seat, I will have to ask him to leave the House.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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He has given us two contradictory versions of events. Within one hour this morning he said two things which are mutually inconsistent.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy must resume his seat when the Chair is standing.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should clarify which is true. It is one or the other.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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If the Deputy does not resume his seat, I will ask him to leave the House.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Both are mutually exclusive.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Stagg.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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On a related matter, which I believe is in order, when does the Government expect to make a decision on the capitalisation of AIB and Bank of Ireland? Does it intend to have a debate on that issue in the House and when might that debate take place? On a second matter, an old chestnut, could the Taoiseach indicate when the Bill to regulate management companies will be published?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Work is continuing on the Bill on management companies. The Deputy has raised this issue on a number of occasions. It is being proceeded with as quickly as possible.
On the other question, the Cabinet intended to meet this afternoon for the purpose of discussing these matters. It will give the House an opportunity to debate them tomorrow.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Crawford.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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If we have that debate, how can we rely on anything the Taoiseach tells us? That is the key issue. There might be more about Anglo Irish Bank than he is prepared to tell the House.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Shatter, is this a takeover bid? I have called Deputy Crawford.
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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In light of the fact that the Taoiseach is going to provide €7 billion for the banks within the next 24 hours or so, could he find the €400 million required to pay the farmers' grants? This is also affecting banks and otherwise.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot deal with that.
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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It is extremely important——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I know it is but I cannot allow it.
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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——and I believe an additional budget is required for it. It is urgent.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Has the Deputy a question that is in order?
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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It is extremely urgent.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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I have a valid question for the Taoiseach. Given that the Government is going to provide €7 billion towards the recapitalisation of the banks, can the Taoiseach explain why the same banks stated last year that they did not require capitalisation?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Costello should ask a question that is in order.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Why have the same banks not drawn down any of the €30 billion that was made available by the European Investment Bank——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not in order. There are two Private Notice Questions down for today, as I have repeated on a thousand occasions, and they will be considered in due course. The Deputy must ask a question that is in order.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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That was an introduction to my question. My point is that there is €30 billion available in the European Investment Bank to be drawn down by the Irish banks.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The question is not in order. I call Deputy Brian Hayes.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Is there a legal reason for the banks not drawing it down? Do we need to amend the legislation?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Hayes.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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A Cheann Comhairle, I am asking about legislation.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Of what legislation is the Deputy speaking?
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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I have to explain what the legislation about. This is a very important matter. If we are recapitalising the banks and we are not drawing down money that is already available, is there a legal impediment to doing so?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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What is the legislation?
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Is there a legal impediment to drawing down that money, to ensure cashflow for small and medium businesses which are crying out for it?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is legislation promised in that area?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No legislation is required. I understand about €30 million is being drawn down from that fund at present by the three main banks.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Why is it not happening?
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Why is it not being drawn down?
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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It is. There is no impediment. It is out there waiting to be drawn down.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are Private Notice Questions on this. I call Deputy Brian Hayes.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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A Cheann Comhairle, you have received other questions today. You might concede on the first question and that would clear up this entire matter, but I do not wish to pre-empt your decision. The Education for People with Special Educational Needs Act or EPSEN Act passed by the Oireachtas gave absolute rights and guarantees to special needs children in primary and post-primary school. Can the Taoiseach advise the House if the Minister for Education and Science had the full support of the National Council for Special Education before his decision to effectively get rid of 128 teachers for special needs children from 1 September next? Would the Taoiseach not accept that an amendment to the EPSEN Act is required for the Minister to do this?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is legislation promised in that area?
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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What other cutbacks in 2009 is the Government planning which we have not been told about and which the Minister for Education and Science might announce at midnight?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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There is no legislation promised. I call Deputy Burton.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Will the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance make a statement in the House? At the time of the banks guarantee — and on the occasion of each of the four other major debates relating to the nationalisation of Anglo Irish Bank and the recapitalisation announcement — I asked them whether they were aware that 30 September was the final year end accounting date of Anglo Irish Bank and what impact that had on the decision of the Government to bring forward the guarantee scheme.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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This is repetition. The matter has already been ruled on.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Minister for Finance denied that he was even aware of the year end date, which says something about his competence.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is well aware that a debate has been promised for tomorrow——
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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This is a conspiracy by the Government to save Anglo Irish Bank at the expense of the general Irish banking system.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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——and I am sure Deputy Burton will be able to make her contribution then.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is a wrong conspiracy. You should come to the House and address what you told the House when you misled the House, Minister.
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I did not mislead the House.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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There are two Bills promised. The first is the financial services (deposit guarantee scheme) Bill. How can the Government proceed with that Bill in the context of what we now know about what the Government knew about the guarantee and the circumstances in Anglo Irish Bank but refused to tell this House when it introduced the guarantee on 29 September? The second Bill is the National Pensions Reserve Fund (Amendment) Bill. How can that Bill be introduced when we know that the proposal to put €7.5 billion into the two big banks is seriously and dangerously flawed because of behind the scenes deals between this Government and Anglo Irish Bank?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Once again, I totally refute that statement. It is totally inaccurate and wrong. It is just not true and it does not become this House to continue making those allegations. They are not true, and I ask the Deputy to accept that. Everything we are doing here and everything we are trying to do to contend with the situation is in the public interest. To continue with such innuendo adds nothing to the debate.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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To ask us to believe, Taoiseach, that you did not know suggests that you are incompetent, and so is the Minister.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No. To be honest, what the Deputy has to say suggests——
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It suggests that the Taoiseach is incompetent beyond belief.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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——that she is on an unrelenting campaign of innuendo regarding this matter which has no basis in fact. That is what it is.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is true. It does nothing——
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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It is totally irresponsible.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach is aware of how deadly and difficult are the financial circumstances of Anglo Irish Bank but he decided to put the rest of the banking system in peril for Anglo Irish Bank. That is what he is accused of.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Burton is out of order.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is typical of his incompetence.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I reject that accusation.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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You did not know your incompetence.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I reject that accusation as being without foundation.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We must move on.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I absolutely and totally reject it.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I do reject it, without any equivocation.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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When will you tell us when you became aware of the €7 billion?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Will the Taoiseach appoint an inspector to investigate the affairs of Anglo Irish Bank? There are currently four investigations running in Anglo Irish Bank. Will he appoint an inspector of the High Court? That is required to clear it out and restore our reputation.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Durkan.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Our reputation has been destroyed by this.
John Cregan (Limerick West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Burton is destroying it more.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach has answered the question. I call Deputy Durkan.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Chair will be glad to hear that I will not pursue that particular question, although it is on my mind and there are some unanswered questions. Deputy Stagg raised the issue of estate management companies. The Taoiseach did not clarify the matter but only said it is ongoing. However, when I asked the Tánaiste about it I was told a single Bill was being introduced.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Deputy should not mind what she says.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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In the previous week, I was told there would be two Bills, one from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and one from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Will the Taoiseach clarify whether there will be one or two Bills?
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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They think it is one Bill but they do not think it will work.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government recently announced a scheme for insulating houses, which is very progressive and welcome. It is a good idea. However, at the same time, local authorities throughout the country have abolished the disabled persons' grants——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That will do, come on.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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——or suspended them.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Give us a break, come on.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry, a Cheann Comhairle——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Ask about legislation.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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——the local government Bill is on the Order Paper and you know it is on the Order Paper.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I do. We will ask the Taoiseach about that.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I would like to have a debate on that issue——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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No, on the local government Bill.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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——and let us find out what exactly is happening in this area. Are we receiving contradiction?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach on the legislation.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is one Bill we are putting forward on the multi-units, and the other one is this session.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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We know it is this session, but when will we have it this session? Will we wait for the abolition?
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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He has been "this session" for four years.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach stated "this session".
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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——the Taoiseach is aware that the disabled persons' grants have been abolished.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I cannot go along with this now. Deputy Timmins is next.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The disabled persons' grants are abolished at the same time that the Government makes an announcement to refurbish houses, which is a good scheme.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Durkan has made his point. I call Deputy Timmins.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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They are not abolished.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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If they are not abolished, what is the status of the disabled persons' grants?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank Deputy Aylward. Have a chat with him about that afterwards. I call Deputy Timmins.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The Government has sought to portray the questioning of bank practices as unpatriotic or irresponsible both inside and outside this House. It was mentioned by some of the Ministers.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Timmins is swimming.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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It is not unpatriotic or irresponsible.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Timmins must know that is not in order.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach mentioned that we were going to have a debate on recapitalisation tomorrow. Any debate we have had inside this House in the past few months has been rushed. It has been a scramble.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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We will not follow the Government blindly.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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This is the most serious issue facing the country——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must move on anyway, whether it is or not.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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——and we are expected to take the Government on trust, a trust that has not held up to date.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I cannot go into that now, and Deputy Timmins knows well I cannot. Does the Deputy have a question that is in order?
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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A Cheann Comhairle, if you do not allow the private notice questions, can you suggest how we can deal with this, the most important issue to face the country?
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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What suggestion have you for us today, instead of scrambling in here tomorrow to a preconceived idea and to learn some of the information?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I strongly advise Deputy Timmins to ask a question which is in order——
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The markets must decide where our banks stand at present.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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——and not to muse and put forward hypotheses. Deputy Ring is next.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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We cannot deal with it until we know the extent of the problem. Whether knowingly or not, we do not have the information.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Ring is next.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I would appear the Government has much more information than we have.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Ring is next.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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It was irresponsible not to share it with the House.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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We have a public interest remit in here and we will not follow the Government line.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Ring is next.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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A Cheann Comhairle, you have a duty——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow your own Deputy in.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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——in this House to ensure that the public interest and democracy is protected.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will do that, do not worry. I call Deputy Ring.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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It is not being protected here this morning.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is of course.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Every citizen of the State that I meet has asked me this question over the past few weeks. I want to ask the Taoiseach when, under the current legislation, the fraud squad and CAB will go in and investigate the banks. There are two laws in this country, one for the poor and one for the banks. The people want to know when the fraud squad or CAB will be prepared to go in and see what was going on in the banks.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Put it down for the Adjournment.
Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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When the EPSEN Act, legislation that was introduced to ensure education for people with special needs, was suspended a number of months ago, there was a little bit of a kerfuffle, but not much because we felt that whatever was there would remain in place. The Minister for Education and Science has created a reputation by portraying himself as the Rocky V of the Government. It is easy to be Rocky when one is taking on vulnerable children with disabilities.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Rocky V is not in order on the Order of Business, as Deputy Lynch well knows.
Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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I know that well. I ask the Taoiseach to turn to the Minister of State with responsibility for disability, who is seated behind him, and ask him if he intends to allow this to happen, that children with special needs will now be taken out of mainstream school and put back into special schools——-
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I do not know what is wrong this morning but we seem to be annoyed. I cannot do that.
Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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——bused out of their communities every day and bused back?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Lynch is out of order, unfortunately.
Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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The socialisation of children with special needs will now stop. It is the most revolting and disgusting cut that I have seen by this Government——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Lynch cannot discuss that now.
Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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——and there have been some beauties.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are no circumstances under which we can discuss that now.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not want to be out of order but I made three proposals that we would sit for an hour and a half longer than normal to discuss the circumstances surrounding the receipt by Anglo Irish Bank of €7 billion from ILP. I am prepared to withdraw that, Sir, if, in your own particular and specific Kerry way, you give a signal in your objectivity and independence that the two questions referred to by Deputy Deasy will be allowed today and there can be a real discussion about this in advance of the legislation tomorrow.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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According to the long-standing precedents, I will make that decision in due course and before 2.30 p.m. today.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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It is being favourably considered.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I think that is a signal of intent.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I should think it was.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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It is being favourably considered.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Bannon.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Could I just add this? The Taoiseach stated there would be a debate tomorrow. I assume he means that the legislation proposed by Government would be introduced and that there would be a proper opportunity to debate that in the House, that it is legislation rather than just a debate.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The debate is to discuss the decision.
James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The sale of alcohol Bill is still wandering around the legislation programme. It was scheduled to be published last autumn. It should have been taken in tandem with the Intoxicating Liquor Bill 2008. When can we finally expect the publication of this Bill?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will move along to——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Sheehan, my apologies.
P J Sheehan (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I thought you had overlooked my demand to ask the Taoiseach a question. I do not bother the Taoiseach too often. I do not overload him with questions but there are a few matters I want to clarify with him.
Regarding the Criminal Justice (Money Laundering) Bill, the Fianna Fáil website makes the following offer: "We are delighted to announce the Fianna Fáil Insurance Package, starting with the delivery of Fianna Fáil Home Insurance." From where did this arise?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We will move on.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy will have to have a discussion about that at some cumman some night if he can, but I do not propose to deal with it.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We will have to have a discussion about that.
P J Sheehan (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Under the financial services (deposit guarantee scheme) Bill——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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He is advertising insurance schemes on the Order of Business.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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They only want to take their contents because the developers are not giving them any more money.
P J Sheehan (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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——is the Fianna Fáil Party registered as an intermediary with the Financial Regulator? I suggest the Financial Regulator's rules must be not to tell one anything.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I suggest Deputy Sheehan visit Mr. Dorgan in Fianna Fáil headquarters.
P J Sheehan (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Does the Taoiseach tell the Financial Regulator nothing ever?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must move on.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Did the Taoiseach state that there would be legislation?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must move on.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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On a point of clarification——
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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——did the Taoiseach state there would be legislation tomorrow?
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Burton knows well he did not.