Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Question 7: To ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs the discussions that have taken place recently between members of the Government and the Presidency of the European Union; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34186/08]

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Since France took over the EU Presidency in July, I have accompanied the Taoiseach to two meetings with President Sarkozy and Foreign Minister Kouchner at which we had comprehensive and constructive discussions. Consequently, we have gained a good understanding of each other's position on key EU issues, which will serve us well as we prepare for the October and December European Councils at which matters of considerable significance for Ireland and the Union will be discussed.

On 21 July, the Government and the Presidency discussed the Lisbon treaty in Dublin during a visit by President Sarkozy. On that occasion, the Taoiseach stressed the need for the decision of the people to be respected and explained the Government's objective of developing a fuller understanding of the concerns that influenced the outcome of the referendum before deciding on the best way forward. The Taoiseach also stressed that the people remained committed to Ireland's full involvement in the European Union.

During the meeting we exchanged views on the situation in Sudan and Chad and the important contribution being made by the EUFOR Chad-CAR mission to which Ireland and France are the two largest troop contributors and which is under the command of Lieutenant General Pat Nash. There was also a discussion of the situation regarding Iran and its nuclear programme. During his visit to Dublin President Sarkozy also discussed the outcome of the referendum with representatives of the political parties and others who had been active on either side of the referendum campaign.

On 1 October I accompanied the Taoiseach to Paris for a further meeting with President Sarkozy and Foreign Minister Kouchner. This meeting provided a useful opportunity for preparatory work ahead of next week's European Council. It allowed the Taoiseach to bring the President up to date with the latest developments in Ireland, including the findings of the independent research commissioned by the Government and the establishment of the Oireachtas Sub-committee on Ireland's Future in the European Union. At this meeting the Taoiseach also outlined the measures that the Government had announced to safeguard the Irish financial system. The French Presidency has been giving priority to dealing with the financial crisis. It is expected the Union's response to the crisis will be the central topic at next week's European Council meeting. Ireland is open to a comprehensive European response and regards the European Council as an important opportunity for the Union to contribute to stabilising financial markets and managing the economic effects of the current upheavals.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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I might begin at the end. Will the Minister address the apparent contradiction between the German and French positions on the future role of the European Central Bank in responding to rising unemployment in Europe?

One reason for tabling the question is the original Lisbon accord's legacy of neglect of competitiveness and cohesion. Given the long-standing French influence on competitive space, France's neglect of the cohesion aspect of the accord has emphasised the importance of mediating institutions. Highly unaccountable institutions involved in speculative rather than productive versions of the economy were enabled to run riot with a type of wild capitalism, while the mediating institutions of state regulation or partnership were neglected. When President Sarkozy stops lecturing us on where we should go, will the preparations for the forthcoming Council meeting include an employment strategy involving state initiatives?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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In the immediate aftermath of the June Council, there was an interesting discussion on social Europe. The President of the Commission, José Manuel Durão Barroso, was clear on the necessity for the European Union to demonstrate its relevance to its citizens in terms of expanded social programmes and so forth. I am not sure that the Deputy's depiction of the Union and its institutions is entirely accurate. There has been a strong social and cohesion dimension to the European agenda. Take, for example, the new member states and the significant attempts to table proposals on workers' rights, social solidarity and so forth.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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It is a neglected agenda.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Any country only holds the Presidency for six months. Given that only three months of the French Presidency have passed, we cannot blame France for all of the European Union's identifiable shortcomings. I am satisfied that the Commission is clear on the necessity to do more regarding the social agenda.

Lucinda Creighton (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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The Lisbon Agenda is important. Obviously, the European Union has not gone far enough, predominantly because it has not been allowed to by member states. We must consider this matter in the context of our position on the future of Europe. Does the Minister agree that, were we not in the Union and the euro zone, the economy could have gone the way of Iceland's in recent days? The safety net we have, by virtue of our membership, is absolutely crucial. In bilateral discussions with the Presidency, has there been concentration on the future response? There is a Council meeting next week but the EU cannot operate on the basis of a Council meeting every two months. I assume there is more constant and regular communication.

Regarding the fallout from Lisbon, in the Minister's discussions with the French President, is there frank discussion of the consequences of Ireland's "No" vote to Europe? The Taoiseach, the Minister and the Minister of State have stated that everything is rosy in the garden and that they were welcomed with open arms at Council meetings. I do not believe this and we know that there are consequences. I ask the Minister to outline these to the House.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with Deputy Creighton's point that we are a euro zone country. The role of the ECB has been important in weathering the storm over the past 12 months in providing liquidity to our banking system.

Lucinda Creighton (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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It was crucial.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is a story that needs to be told. Every banking system has had major challenges, to understate it slightly, in the past few weeks. Ireland would have had those challenges far earlier if it was not for the ECB. Now is the time to be at the heart of Europe, not on the margins. I would be worried about going down an isolationist road, which would not be good for the country and could imperil our future in terms of financial and economic stability and job creation.

Regarding the EU Presidency, there were frank discussions but we are all democrats. All democrats cannot get away from the reality when people vote. People voted in a certain direction and that is it. President Sarkozy understands that but is anxious to understand the underlying issues and to know if he can be of any help in respect of the issues the Irish people surfaced in the debate on the Lisbon treaty. The national consultation we are engaged in through the Oireachtas committee is a good starting point. The timeframe of two months is tight and I appreciate the co-operation of all in the Houses.

In fairness to the French Presidency, it has been an eventful three or four months. As President Sarkozy stated, he was hardly in office before he had the Lisbon treaty agenda on his desk because of the Irish vote, followed by a war in Georgia in August and the financial stability crisis in September. It cannot be described as uneventful and he is wondering what is coming in the next three months.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Does the Minister respect the 53.4% "No" vote in the referendum on the Lisbon treaty? At times, the opposite message is coming across. Does the Minister agree the treaty requires all EU member states to ratify it and that it cannot be implemented at the moment? Does the Minister agree that the fear of conscription was never used in literature brought out by mainstream "No" campaigners? Does the Minister agree that this point, peddled in some quarters, is absurd?

Is it not a bit rich that some European countries are lecturing Iran on nuclear powers when France and Britain are major nuclear powers? I ask the Minister to bring this message to Europe.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister under pressure from his colleagues in Europe to have a second referendum? Have they articulated the view that they are under pressure to put him under pressure?

The Minister referred to isolation and how we should not be going down the road on our own. The perception was created that our European counterparts were not satisfied with the policy we adopted in the banking crisis. Was that view articulated to him? The British, French and Germans seemed to be dissatisfied with the route we took. Did the Minister receive that message, notwithstanding that matters have changed dramatically in the past few days in those countries?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have made it clear that I respect the decision of the Irish people.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Minister always says "but".

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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"But" comes up a lot.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This refers to Deputy Creighton's point that other countries in Europe have a desire to move forward. We must reconcile the view in Ireland that we should be part of the EU with the dilemma faced by the EU from the decision not to proceed with the Lisbon treaty. We must make up our mind what to do and that will happen in due course. I prefer genuine engagement between parties in this House on that issue, in the context of the sub-committee, to see what the red line issues are for Ireland in terms of our continuing engagement with the EU. Are there areas where we can get satisfactory assurances on certain issues? It is a useful debate to have at this point.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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Particularly between elected people rather than the self-selected people.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Regarding the fear of conscription, independent research showed that 40% of the Irish people believed that the Lisbon treaty meant conscription to a European army, although I am not saying they all voted based on this basis. I met one couple with two children at the polling station and they asked me if the children would be conscripted. I am not making that up, it happened.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Deputy McGrath's colleagues in Sinn Féin campaigned on that ground.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not saying it was included in literature on the treaty but the research showed that 40% of the Irish people believed that Lisbon meant conscription to a European army.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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It was not in literature but by word of mouth.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We must go behind it and ask why people believe that. What leads people to have that sense?

Iran is not satisfying all of the transparency requirements of the International Atomic Energy Agency and Dr. ElBaradei. We have put this to the Iranians and there is ongoing engagement.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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Iran should not be threatened with a pre-emptive strike.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The EU would love to have the Lisbon issue resolved and go ahead with it, but it cannot because of our decision. I was at the parliamentary constitutional committee last Monday and this message came across strongly. Socialists and Christian Democrats wanted Ireland to get it sorted but that is their perspective and we have our perspective as a democratic country.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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What about the banking issue?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We are now seven minutes over time.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The banking issue is moving very fast.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Any telephone calls?