Lucinda Creighton (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Question 86: To ask the Minister for Education and Science if additional funds will be provided by his Department to schools to pay for water rates; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19936/08]

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I am aware of the cost pressures on schools, including those arising from water charges, and it is therefore a priority for the Government to improve funding for the day-to-day running costs of schools. Specific commitments on improving school funding form a central part of the education provisions of the programme for Government. These commitments are a direct follow-on from the clear thrust of Government policy over recent years to improve the position of schools, primary schools in particular.

Primary schools are receiving over €178 per pupil to meet their day-to-day running costs, representing an increase of nearly 70% over the 2002 rate of €105, and €15 more per child than they received last year. Post-primary schools have also seen improvements in funding and, owing to a similar €15 increase this year, they now receive €331 per pupil. As the Deputy will be aware, we are committed to doubling the capitation grant for primary schools over the lifetime of the programme for Government.

In the context of reducing water costs for schools, it has been demonstrated that fitting simple water-saving devices to toilets and sinks can reduce water consumption considerably at very little cost, as can other small works such as fixing easily identifiable leaks. Primary school authorities may use their annual minor works grant to fund such measures. The minor works grant has increased by nearly 50% over the past two years and some €27 million was issued to primary schools at the end of last year for that purpose.

The Government agreed a transition period to full water charges in the case of non-fee-charging recognised schools and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has advised local authorities of the detailed arrangements regarding the implementation of this decision.

The transitional arrangements afford schools the opportunity to put in place water conservation arrangements and practices and to undertake works that can help reduce water usage significantly before full water charges are introduced. By virtue of good water conservation, schools can be in a much stronger position to reduce the impact of water charges on their overall budgets.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House.

Guidance was also recently issued to schools on the most appropriate measures to minimise excess consumption of water and to reduce wastage where it exists. In addition, water conservation issues will continue to be addressed by my Department as a matter of routine where new schools are being built or where major renovations are being carried out to existing schools under the schools modernisation programme. Furthermore, those schools with very high water consumption will be identified and contacted with a view to introducing measures to help them reduce water usage.

My Department remains in close liaison with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government regarding water conservation and is supportive of any initiatives by it and local authorities that will help reduce water costs for schools.

Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I wish the Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, and the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Haughey, well.

Much of what the Minister said would be fine were it not for the fact that the Department fails to recognise that the average debt of national schools throughout the country is €23,000. The content of the circular issued by the Department in response to the water charges issue, namely, that caretakers and cleaners should use proper mop buckets and provide push taps, would be laughable if it were not so serious. The reality is that there has been no indication from the Minister, in response to this question, as to how much the Department will provide to schools that go ahead with the suggested works and as to when it will provide it. There is no indication of the cost to schools of obtaining a separate water supply. When will the Minister provide additional funding to allow boards of management of schools to implement the suggestions in the circular? How much will he give the schools for this purpose?

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I do not expect to be in a position to make further improvements to capitation grants in the current year. However, I am very conscious that it is necessary to increase them and I will keep this need very much in mind.

Two issues arise, one of which concerns conservation of water in schools. Fitting simple water-saving devices should be relatively cost-effective. More important, I would like to see the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, inculcating in children the benefits of conserving water.

Under the transition arrangements agreed by Government, schools will play a flat fee per pupil. The fees are €3 per pupil in 2007, €3.50 per pupil in 2008 and €4 per pupil in 2009. On the basis of metering, the charges applied for 2007 will be recalculated according to the transitional flat rate with credit given for any excess payment. My legal advice suggests that by 2010 we will have to move towards full cost recovery. The transition period was to give schools an opportunity to consider their systems of conservation to ensure water would not be wasted. We have put in place a minor works scheme to ensure that where leaks occur funding can be used to carry out repairs.

Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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It is fine to talk about the interim period but the Minister should clarify whether the Department will fund the cost of water provision thereafter. The circular states the local authorities will be identifying the relevant schools with excessive consumption. Has there been consultation with the local authorities in this regard? Most Members realise local authorities do not have the personnel or resources even to identify much more serious difficulties that arise in delivering their services.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Under the EU water framework directive, all non-domestic users must pay for water used. This system will be fully in place by 2010. It is important that we all exhort school authorities to conserve water.

Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is suggesting they are wasting it but they are not.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Schools can make a significant impact on lowering the charges they have been meeting to date by installing simple water conservation devices. They can use the €27 million made available at the end of last year under the small works scheme to ensure leaks are repaired.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I accept the Minister's remarks on the encouragement of young people and schools to engage in water conservation, but we cannot single out schools, penalise them and force them to fund-raise for water, thus distracting them from the provision of quality teaching, which is their primary responsibility. Why not apply the same principle to Garda stations, military barracks, Departments and the Houses of the Oireachtas? Why are schools being singled out in this instance? It is surely incumbent on the Government to ensure teachers are given the wherewithal to get on with the job of teaching and that pupils are given the opportunity to learn, including in respect of the issues the Minister highlighted. The further noose or requirement placed on boards of management to raise money to provide simple essential services such as water for drinking and flushing toilets is surely unacceptable.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I am glad the Deputy agrees there should be a water conservation policy within schools. Such a policy should be actively pursued. As for the Deputy's question on the Government response, I already have outlined a transitional arrangement that will be put in place by the Government to alleviate some of the difficulties. Schools have been given an opportunity until 2010 to put in place conservation measures.

However, I cannot do anything because the Government has sought legal advice on the EU water framework directive which makes clear that all non-domestic users must pay for water used. Schools, like other non-domestic water service users, must pay water charges. The legal advice also confirms they will be required to pay the full cost of water services used by them on a metered basis, with effect from 1 January 2010.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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New advice.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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The directive also requires that——

Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Failure of the previous Government deal.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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——measures be put in place up to 2010 to move towards full cost recovery. The only exemption in this regard pertains to domestic households.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Go raibh maith agat a Aire.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Schools are in the same position as all other users, including charities and social services.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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If the Minister will facilitate me, I am trying to allow a number of Deputies to contribute.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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No Opposition Members dispute what the Minister has just put on the record of the House. The net question is how, under a free primary school education system, will schools meet the cost of the conserved water they will be obliged to pay for.

Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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That is right.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Will it be paid out of raffles and fund-raising from parents or will the Minister increase unilaterally the amount of capitation specifically above and beyond existing commitments to meet this additional cost? Members do not dispute the legal basis, as that day is over. While the schools must pay the cost, who will give them the money to do so? Will it be the Minister or will they be obliged to revert to the parents?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Deputy Brian Hayes may ask the Minister a brief supplementary question.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I have been running a book since 2.30 p.m. on the number of programme for Government promises the Minister has ditched. This is the third such promise. He ditched one on class size, another on information and communications technology and now he has ditched a programme for Government commitment.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I do not agree with the Deputy.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I will remind the Minister of what the Government stated only eight months ago. It stated it would introduce a waste and water allowance based on school numbers and that charges only would become effective after the agreed allowance was exceeded.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Exactly.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister now has informed Members he has received legal advice that from 1 January 2010, the school will be obliged to pay the whole shebang. Talk of making it up as one goes along. Will the Minister confirm to the House that the programme for Government commitment now has been ditched?

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Of course I will not confirm that because it is not the case.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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That is what is happening.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Please allow the Minister to reply.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Hayes should separate two issues. The first is the legal framework and the legal position from 2010, which is that the full cost must be paid by schools.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Everyone accepts that.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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That is the first issue.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Please allow the Minister to reply.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I accept the Minister has changed his position.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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In his response to me, Deputy Hayes did not accept that.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I accept the Minister has changed his position.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Please, Deputy.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputy was listening, I stated that in respect of capitation grants and schools, I intended to keep that issue foremost in my mind. This is one of the issues I consider must be addressed in my term of office. I can only give the commitment that this issue is very much on my mind.

Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Does that mean funding?

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I do not wish to give a hostage to fortune. Members will appreciate that at present, I am going through all the finances with the Department. As an issue however, I believe that as Minister for Education and Science, I must examine capitation seriously.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I agree with the Minister.