Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Question 81: To ask the Minister for Education and Science his policy in respect of reducing class size; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20086/08]

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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The programme for Government sets out the overarching policy position on the provision of additional teachers and on reductions in class size over the life of the Government. The programme contains a commitment to increase the number of primary teachers by at least 4,000 and on that basis to make further progress in reducing class sizes.

Budget 2008 provided my Department with €4.6 billion, or €380 million extra, for teacher pay and pensions. That was a very substantial level of additional investment in terms of the economic environment on which the budget was based. That allocation provides for more than 2,000 extra primary teachers, more than the number in schools when the Government took office last summer. It covers the additional teachers who went into schools last September for the previously announced reduction to a 27:1 based staffing schedule with additional teachers this school year and in the coming school year to meet increasing enrolments and provide for special needs and for the language requirements of newcomer children. This means that in terms of the overall commitment to provide at least 4,000 additional teachers, the Government, in its first two years in office, will be well ahead of target.

All programme for Government commitments to improve public services, including those relating to class size, are contingent on the economic and budgetary environment and the need for prudent expenditure and fiscal management. Even since the presentation of budget 2008 last December, there have been significant alterations in the external and domestic environment. In that context any reasonable observer would regard the fact that the Government has already taken measures that will see the allocation of more than 2,000 additional teachers to primary schools as a considerable investment, all things considered.

Similarly, the commitment to improving class size in second level schools can only be considered in the context of the overall economic and budgetary position that might prevail in the coming years and the competing priorities for available resources.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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It is widely accepted that the issue of class size was the Stalingrad issue that resulted in the Minister's predecessor being moved from the Department of Education and Science. Any reasonable observer, to use the Minister's words, might come to the conclusion that the Government promised in 2002 that no child of nine years of age or younger would be in a class of 20 or more by 2007. How many children of nine or under are now in a class of 20 or more? Is it still the commitment of the Government to have a ratio of no more than 20:1 for classes with children of nine or younger?

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have that information today, but I can obtain it for the Deputy. It was proposed to recruit 4,000 extra teachers over the period of the plan. Two years into that five-year plan we now have in excess of 2,000 additional teachers. Any fair-minded observer can see that the commitment to appoint additional teachers is being honoured. The Deputy is aware of the pressures on the Exchequer. However, after two years the Government has delivered additional teachers beyond what it was required to do.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Let us be absolutely clear about this matter. The Government gave that commitment in 2002. It is not a new commitment by the Minister. The Government gave a firm commitment to reduce the staffing schedule from 27:1 to 24:1 in the first three years of the Government, which took office last year. It welshed on that commitment in last year's budget. The reason there are 2,000 more teachers is that a growing population of young people are going into schools and it is inevitable that a greater number of teachers is required. However, I want an absolute assurance on the Minister's commitments. From the Minister's reply it seems he is falling into the same trap as his predecessor in that this commitment is now forgotten about, ignored and put to one side. The Minister has had two weeks to find his feet on this issue. Will he deliver next year on a promise that he should have delivered this year?

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy seems to forget that all commitments in the plan were predicated on the basis of the economic well-being and resources that were available. There is a commitment to have 4,000 teachers and it is my intention that we will honour that. There is a commitment to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio. The former Minister indicated as part of the budget for 2008 that this was being set aside for 2008. Obviously we will review this issue in light of the funding available in the Department.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Last week, I published a list of 40 schools around the country that will lose a teacher from 1 September. Many of those schools have lost one or two pupils from their enrolment last September, even though they have increased their enrolment since then. As a gesture of goodwill on the Minister's part, will he consider safeguarding the 42 teachers in those 40 schools that will lose a teacher in September and, inevitably, will push up the average number of children in each of the classes in those schools?

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is aware that an arrangement is in place and he is asking me to break that arrangement. He is saying that we should allocate extra teachers but that when there is a fall-off in pupil numbers I should break the rules. I have to be fair. The number of teachers that will be affected is approximately 50 and, overall, we are employing an extra 500 teachers. What is important is the quality of teaching. We are lucky in that the quality of persons wishing to become involved in the education system is of the highest standard. The most important issue that emerges from surveys of parents is the quality of teaching.